Authenticity

Kay
It is not for nothing that we are discussing authenticity today, after our episode on death. Last episode we drew your attention to a particularly fraught moment in your life: the last funeral that you attended. Think again, what did people say?

I imagine it proceeded much as any obituary does: perhaps the dearly departed “is in heaven now,” or “died peacefully.” In fact, I doubt that you have heard many–if any–original eulogies. Why is this? Why does the last second of a person’s life matter more to us than the two-odd billion seconds before it?   

No, lies like this are not evil. Instead, they are in-authentic. These lies and evasions allow us to hide ourselves from a terrible reality: our very own deaths. Our conversation is about the opposite of a boring eulogy. Today, we are talking about authenticity.

“I died too soon” says Garcin in Jean-Paul Sartre’s No Exit. In this play, Garcin, along with the other two protagonists have recently arrived in Hell.

Inez, one of the other inmates, replies to Garcin, saying, “One always dies too soon–or too late. And yet one’s whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are–your life, and nothing else”

If we are our lives, then what we do with them is crucially important. The question that Sartre is implicitly asking us is almost trite, so many people have asked it before: If you were to die now, how would your life stack up to your supposed values?

Living authentically, at least to Sartre and many other existentialists, is a matter of grasping our own freedom. Indeed, the authentic person is, for Sartre, the person who recognizes their own radical, terrifying, exhilarating freedom and lives into it. We are free to do what we personally feel is the right choice, and we are authentic if we take that freedom to do the right thing. By this metric, aligning our ethical assumptions with our actions is authenticity.

But is Sartre’s the correct way to pursue the task of authenticity? For that matter, why is it even desirable for us to attempt to be authentic? Further, Sartre’s approach is decidedly individualistic. We are each “thrown” into the world, and we alone can grasp our radical, lonely freedom to choose the thing we see as right.

What does authenticity look like in the context of a community? What does authenticity look like in the context of a religious community?

Here to puzzle through the possibilities of authenticity and community is Kristen Tideman, a student of philosophy who is in the process of completing her masters degree.

I would normally introduce you a bit more, but given the topic, I’d rather begin this conversation with your own approach to authenticity in mind. So then, who are you?

Kristen
Well, it’s like weird that it’s such a tough question to answer, you know? Because we say it all the time, kind of. And I have been thinking a lot recently about kind of identity and how that shapes the world. So things that I will say often–especially here in Canada–is where I’m from: In the US. I’m a person from Pennsylvania, I’m a grad student. I have two jobs, one working with axe seminaries and one [laughs] serving beer training posts. I’m a wonderer, I have weird obsessions with anime, and other things. And then I let them go. And I’m, yeah, a member of a group of friends. I have two sisters, parents that are pretty cool. So however you think I am most identified that’s–you can pick your poison there.

Kay
Right. Pick your poison. It’s interesting. I’m just noticing that all of the pieces that you were drawing at were parts of community or things around you things that that almost impinge on your life, things that affect who you are kind of externally. That’s really interesting. I wonder, if you had to pick one, one? Answer–if you if you had a “yes” or “no”, which–and this is a darn hard question–would you see yourself as authentic?

Kristen
Oh, see, now now you’re sounding like, now you’re sounding like my therapist, and I’m, you know, I’m gonna question I’m like, how can I pick an answer? That’s not going to condemn me? in, in my lived experience, I feel authentic. So… already I’m avoiding your question but still, but I know when I’m approaching things, I say, you know, whatever that kind of sentiment is I’m like, “Yes, this is… I’m doing this.” “This feels true.” You know? And then when that doesn’t measure up against the standard that I’m already applying to myself, I’m like, “that’s not me!” If I’m doing something, I’m like, “Oh, that was a mistake.” So I’m like, “that’s not Included in my identity.” 

But how can I even? How can I even say that? You know, that alone, that’s a choice to that I’ve made to say, “hey, that’s not me, because I didn’t do it. That aligns with some certain, again, a standard, not always articulated, that I could live up to.” 

Kay
Wow, that’s very interesting, I think we definitely should come back to mistakes in a little bit. And what it is that happens between when we feel authentic, and we’re living into our moral systems, and what happens when we’re not doing that, but I don’t want to throw people in too much.

Kristen
We’re gonna get there.

Kay
We’ll get there! So there are a lot of different perceptions of what makes for an authentic action or an authentic life. And today, we’re approaching that question with with Sartre in mind. Clearly, that’s not the only way that one has to do that. People have have talked about authenticity for quite some time. But if you had to take a stab at expounding what authenticity is for Sartre, what would you say?

Kristen
Yeah, and I will say, I feel that I coul be more familiar with Sartre. But, my understanding in this view of “radical freedom” is that you almost don’t have to do the thing that we’re so used to doing of, “oh, where do I look for this answer… what to do in this exact instance?” You know, “who will tell me?” As much as “here, the choice lies in front of me.” And I can interact with it. I can–like the agency–and also that, yeah, it’s not, it’s not fated, you know, that what we do actually has importance, can change the future. 

And so yeah, and I think through the play, No Exit, you see that those actions then change the narrative of each life, you know, and again, the summation, this idea that “the totality of life,” is what’s weighed on the scale. I think that’s, I think that Sartre’s kind of concept of like, “have you, have you taken the responsibility to be good?” “And what have you done with it?” So that’s my perception of Sartre’s view. 

Kay
That’s really interesting, the, the weightiness there is really striking. That, that authenticity isn’t a, it’s not a trite thing for Sartre–I don’t think it’s a trite thing for any of us–but it seems particularly so for these philosophers, that the decisions that we make are so deeply impactful to our beings, to what and who we are. What do you think, what do you think for Sartre Is, is the, the greatest challenge to being authentic?

Kristen
Oh, man, well, this is a difficult question, because, you know, I could look at Sartre, or, you know–but you want us to stay there not, myself yet, right? We’ll get there. 

Kay
Right, we’ll get we’ll get to you very soon.

Kristen
I’m even I’m trying to put this in the lens of, No Exit. I think some of it has to do. It’s very funny, again, I don’t expect everyone to read this play, but there’s a character–Inez–however you say it, and, and she’s, she keeps saying, like, “I’m rotten to the core, I’m nothing.” And, you know, even psychologically, it seems that she kind of lives into that identity. Everything she’s done is like, “Well, I have, you know, like, that’s, that’s what I do. That’s who I am.” So again, it’s kind of this factor of like, well, “if I’m nothing if I just work at the post office,” or whatever, you know, and “I’m, you know, rotten, and I help like, against,” and eventually she helps kill this guy. That’s just who, yeah, that’s who she was–kind of like nothing. So, in a way, it’s kind of, she didn’t embrace this responsibility, it seems in her own life to say, “Well, yeah, I kind of, I kind of have this weird position. I’m not anyone of high standing. And yet I still have, you know, freedom.” So it seems the avoidance, you know, kind of rejecting that responsibility is what costs Inez in the end.

Kay
Right. Yeah. I’m definitely seeing the sense that there’s, there’s an interplay between our,  actions and our moral systems here, where we often think, kind of in one direction that you know, “what, what I believe about the world, that that impacts who I am.” Or the other way, you know, how you act that that shows who you are. And it seems like there’s something going back and forth here: that an authentic person recognizes both that their actions impact who and what they become, and also that what they believe about who they are, that that impacts their actions. And definitely, in No Exit you see that after, like, a life has come full circle, what it is that happens to the the human body, the human mind that has been inauthentic. 

I think that a really interesting example that Sartre points to was–and I’m not sure if this is true or not that this actually happened–but I remember that he talks about a student who came to him, and this was during the the French Resistance. And the student had to decide whether he was going to go and fight in the resistance, or stay at home and care for his mom. So on the one hand, he had a, a large cause that was going to impact the future, this war that was deciding fascism, freedom, democracy, he could be part of something bigger. But also, he had to decide whether it would be more important to care for his mom, something more insignificant than the war, but ultimately something that he could impact more readily.

And the point isn’t, which choice is the right choice in the grand scheme for Sartre, the point is, rather, which is the right choice for you, which is the right choice for your moral sensibilities. And it doesn’t really matter what the student did. What matters is whether they did that with an alignment to their their moral systems. So do you find that compelling? Do you think that this particular approach to authenticity that starts approach and many of the existentialists, do you think that it’s, well, for the lack of a better term, “authentic” or a “good” approach to it? 

Kristen
Yeah. Oh, man, how interesting. I mean, compelling, you know, for sure, in terms of what a fascinating idea, and even what even what you’re saying, in terms of this exact example. I think, this is very near to life example, for many people. Not in such a grand scale, but where you’re, you’re, you kind of have to navigate between two good decisions, you know, to potentially beneficial things. And what you’re measuring against. Now, it’s funny to me, too, that even in that, you know, we’re even evaluating, “Is this a good metric?” We’re kind of even reapplying it to our own standards as we’re approaching this idea of authenticity as Sartre in the other existentialists are evaluating it. So! So if I’m going to already start to complicate things. –I’m in a class right now about human nature. And we’re reading Charles Taylor, which, I’m maybe already giving away too much. But Charles Taylor, for those who don’t know–Canadian philosopher, hermeneutic philosopher, so very interpretive. And I guess, technically Christian. –Maybe not even needing to put the word technically there. 

But yeah, he, in the in the book Sources of the Self that we’ve been reading, which is an idea that I think plays into this. So much of what we focus on, is the action itself. So, am I doing–yeah–am I doing good? Is this the good thing to do? Yeah, what is the good thing to do is this action? You know, does it equate? Kind of this sort of measuring process. 

And the idea that he posits that I think is relevant here is that that’s maybe the wrong framework for assessing this, which I think is what the existentialist are doing, even if it’s bringing it back to authenticity of like, “Is this truest for me? Is this is this my choice to do this good thing? Or is this the best in my moral framework?” He’s saying, “that’s still–it seems like that’s still kind of besides the point. Because there’s this other option of being first.

Which again, that seems, again, how you define terms can make things complicated. Maybe that is what the existentialists are getting at, but, he says, we’re so busy waiting. “Is this good?” “Is this morally right?” This moralism that has kind of invaded who we are that we’re actually not concerned with what we love. And if we were more focused on loving things that are good, and letting ourselves be in love with what is good, that would actually shape more of our actions, but we wouldn’t have to think about, “is this good?” “are we measuring along that?” More of, “oh, well, I know like what I love and I, so I do this thing, you know. Now I’m saying that–this is a fairly new idea–this is a funny time that we’re having this interview. 

And I’m I always wonder, you know, “what will my thoughts be a year from now two years from now?” And yet, you know, when something really strikes you, I think it’s something that’s already kind of been percolating inside. This is something that I’ve wondered this hits on something true to me. I think a lot of the measurements we apply to other people is along kind of the same, you know, lines of moralism in terms of, “Oh, did they do the right thing?” You know? And it’s usually “Yes, it’s against our standard.” I don’t think we’re usually measuring with either authenticity, or what they, you know, attempted to do–anything like that. It’s very much moralism. But we, I think are so socially pressured to do the same for ourselves, that, that we say, “Okay, how is this gonna look to other people?” And I think that’s a weird new standard of needing to seem good. That is that that is, even if we don’t acknowledge it, I think is even invading our own sense of how we measure what’s good. 

So I say that because I’m like, “how can you be authentic if the social pressures are so strong, that they’re even invading your subconscious?” You know, so I, you know, right now, a very easy example, for for me is, you know: “oh, no, like, did I not have my mask on in the right place?” And I wear my mask most of the time, right? But even you know, at work, occasionally, you take it down to like, drink water or something. And I’m like, “Oh, am I too close to this person?” You know, and it’s not because I’m actually completely usually concerned with like, “Am I going to spread germs to them that are dangerous?” it’s more of, “will the customer see this?” And that’s really been in my head, you know, the standard. And that’s not–I’m think that’s not authentic. I think that’s not living out of anything that’s true. And yet, I realize it’s playing into my psyche, because it’s because of social pressures whigh. again, I know we’ll get into later. 

But anyway. So these are kind of the concepts I’m I have that are making authenticity difficult, in this time and place, and other times, of course, in different ways. But yeah, 

Kay
That’s interesting. I think, I really appreciate the fact that you are maybe retaking that question of authenticity, and, you know, taking it away from, “should I go to war or not?” Because that’s not so often how we actually navigate authenticity. It’s not a question of, “Should I commit to this cause that will change the face of humanity? Even if I’m only contributing to it in a small way?” No, it’s more a question of “when I go in the supermarket, is somebody perceiving me a certain way?” “How are they perceiving me?” “And how do I feel about that?” And often, yeah, our social pressures, the pieces of what we we want to be perceived often get muddled into, mixed in with, the the parts and pieces of whatever it is that we, you know, “are.” Now I really like that you have focused us back to being and being first. When you say that I’m getting, kind of some Heidegger in the back of my head, which we’re not going to get into but, being, when you say, being that seems intrinsically connected to authenticity. So, do you experience being differently when you’re authentic versus inauthentic? That is, is your self qualitatively a different experience, is whatever it is that you are actually changed by authenticity? Or is authenticity just a label for what it is that we already are? 

Kristen
Hmm, wow, what good questions. There are several ways my mind already wants to address this. And so I’ll just pick one. Conversations we have with one another focus around health, you know, things like physical health, mental health. So in one light, I could see the “authentic self” as the healthier self, you know, in a way that if other things are like plagues, you know, or disease on the self, you know, drawing away from it being fully, you know, like, having vitality and living, you know, without, like, missing an arm or you know, having a cough or something that would damage the health, the health of the self. I think that’s one way to look at it. That’s what we aspire to. We don’t, it’s not necessarily that we’re trying to all look uniform or that it looks like a uniform thing, but the experience of the self that is almost, even just confident, you know, relaxed, not again, not kind of projecting out and going, going somewhere else but, more like “steady,” you know? And I think that’s something–again, even in talking about this, I’m measuring this very much against, like my lived experience, this is a kind of almost a feeling my way to this answer. Another way, because, and I do want to bring this up, I think the common conception of authenticity is just doing how you feel in the moment. And while I think there’s an element of that at play, like, I do think there’s something to the experience of yourself aligning with what you actually also want to be in terms of being good. Obviously, that there’s the negative side of that, if you could be acting out of how you truly do feel. And that is a very negative thing.

Which I think could have been even brought in a little bit more into No Exit, you know, like, yeah, I think with some of the crimes that the people had, I was like, well, there’s got to be more story here. Why did you kill, you know, why did you kill, I mean, the one woman kills a baby, right? You know, and I’m like, that’s, “you could write a whole lot more about this!” Which, of course, was not the, not the motive of the play.

But all the psychological factors that come in, you know, when I, and I see this in myself, when I’m acting, like–I’ll see a kid that’s throwing a temper tantrum, and I’m like, “I understand, except it’s just all inside.” You know? And some of it will come out, like, I’ll be, you know, I’ll be short with someone who’s my friend, or, you know, they did something completely unintentional. And, you know, am I acting authentic then? I mean, again–maybe–depending on how you define authentic, am I acting healthy, then? Probably not? Am I acting even how I want to act or along the standard? No, you know, if I, if I’m thinking rationally, but there’s something at play that’s still making me act in this way. And that, it does feel bad, you know, it feels negative, and I’m acting out of this negativity. 

But I again, that’s where–to complicate further–I think starts ideas of freedom. There are so many things we do to protect ourselves, to kind of defend ourselves, things we do out of pride, things we do because we don’t understand what’s going on, because we feel overwhelmed, that are factors in our decision making that are, I will say, inherent limits on freedom as embodied beings. So that’s, again, here I go, making things complicated on myself too. 

Kay
Yeah, I like that psychological angle. And it’s something that has been frowned upon in philosophy for quite some time. Yeah. And I think that, that that psychologism fear definitely finds its way into a lot of the existentialists that that they they don’t want to get too close to saying, you know, something that that would be approved in a psychological manner. And so I like to, you’re bringing that in, as in, in counterpose to that, because darn it, a kid throwing a tantrum seems to be pretty authentic. 

Kristen
Yeah! [laughs]

Kay
There seems to be a deep embodied sense of self here, where somebody’s you know, that they’re reflecting their inner state on their outer state. And yet simultaneously, we don’t necessarily look at that as a model for how we should live our lives. And so it’s good to complicate this matter, because, right, Authenticity. You can be authentic and do terrible things. And at least under this metric. And so that’s, that’s certainly a frightening, frightening possibility.

But then, what I’m wondering to kind of move this closer towards the social question that we’re hoping to get towards. What is your value system for discerning that the right actions in your life? If we’re being more specific, could you give us an example of a moment in which you felt most authentic? And then what was that like? What, what does it actually feel like to be authentic? We touched on it maybe feeling really frightening, really scary. But does it feel good as well? 

Kristen
Being authentic is almost when I’m not thinking about what I’m doing. Like when I’m in conversation, and you’re just so excited you and your conversation partner in talking about an idea, that you’re–and you know them and there’s some amount of familiarity–that you’re not even concerned about offending them, or how they’re going to perceive you. Or you know, over-joking you know, or under-joking, you know, or impressing them. All the different factors that are kind of sub motivations.

And again, they might they might be there. There’s so many things are going on within ourselves at once. However, when you don’t feel those presences and you’re just kind of focusing on the on the experience itself, you know. You’re not looking at your watch, you’re not thinking about where you have to be. There’s something in that lived experience that I think touches on authenticity. 

Kay
And it feels very much like the opposite of that that experience with the mask that you’re describing. Right? 

Kristen
Yeah, yeah. 

Kay
There’s, there’s not so much of a focus on what what, you know, the others is perceiving so much as just what you’re experiencing with that other. 

Kristen
Totally, totally. And, and I think it’s funny, because I’m even implying an amount of freedom that that person has already kind of granted to you, you know, that that maybe could even be–it’s an idea of safety–you know, where you’re, where you’re, you’re not going to be, you know, judged or looked down upon for something, because you’re just excited about digging into it, you’re curious, you know, and that’s so that’s kind of beautiful in that we, when we can grant that to one another. And that might include, you know, like, again, the element I brought up earlier of mistakes might still come into play there. But it’s not. Again, it’s not the same line, if, you know, there’s a there’s an amount of charity, I think, included in in someone’s perspective, when they say “you can say anything, I see that you’re trying to find something good.” 

You know, and that’s the beauty. I mean, I’m using the example of conversation, it can be in another, you know, it can be in another sense where you’re doing something, maybe even artistic or, or even going on a bike ride, you know, you’re not so concerned about “let’s get there fast,” as much as like, “wow, like, Oh, look at the stream, I’ll look at the birds, you know, let’s sit in the sun for a minute.” There’s similarities there in, in not having a requirement on you, you know, so, yeah, something.

Again, I think I’m just pointing to it. I don’t know if I’m really articulating it. But I think you see a little bit of what I’m saying. 

Kay
It does seem like authenticity is something that we can only gesture to that. It somehow transcends our spoken words, that it somehow moves beyond our systems. And so that’s why a question like that is very hard. But maybe, maybe going towards specificity here. In terms of system. Correct me if I’m wrong, I think you identify as a Christian. And so there seems to be a certain certain set of assumptions, of burdens upon that label, where as a person who identifies with a certain faith tradition, that you you have certain sets of obligations, maybe a set of moral obligations. So for you, if you had to state that concisely, because, right, there’s there’s so much written about what that looks like, for you, and in your own system, or your own approach to the system, what do you find maybe most constraining and most freeing about the specific system of belief and moral goodness that you ascribe to?

Kristen
Most constricting and most freeing? Yeah. So something that’s also very much occupying my mind at this time, is how much of our, the context we are born into affects, really, yeah, our perceptions of things, who we are, what we value all, again, these are external factors. However, this pertains specifically to the Christian tradition, which again, there are many traditions the tradition. Because–and this is not my original thought–but, because it could have been very different. It could have been that, you know, half the denominations, we have, never existed. It could have been, you know, what if there was nothing ever but Catholicism? What would Catholicism look like, you know? And that’s the thing that–this was a new thought to me within the past year–that, again, you know, inspired by others, not like, “I just bought it up.” But the system we have, the tradition we have was not just given to us, like, in the same way as maybe even, you know, the 10 commandments, like, here’s “Here you go, here’s the right manual for starting a church.” 

Yeah, Jesus, I was just talking about this with a friend. Jesus says very little about the church, you know, I think it’s just “on this rock, oh, build this church.” And one other reference. And that’s what you’re like “what?” You know, because I think when we read the Bible, we’re probably already doing it from a context of being within church frequently. At least I have since my young age. And I know that I remember the first time that I realized people didn’t go to church. My mom’s like, “Oh, yeah, your friends, not–when we’re like four–she’s like, your friends not gonna be at church. She doesn’t go with her family.” We’re like, “what?” Like, that was an anomaly to me. 

So, there’s a lot that’s freeing about that to realize even “Oh, that this tradition is not the thing that was given to us. We have been given, already as Christians, freedom to develop these traditions within Christianity.” And, again, kind of a kind of a crazy thought to have. But something that’s been helpful for me is, “wow, this, you know, this tradition matters immensely in my life, I think it will continue to matter, I imagine for a long time, if not the entire duration of my life–I anticipate that will involve change. In some respects it already has. Having, you know, just moved. Even when you move churches, when you move contexts, but also Yeah, and I think doing this program, things like that.

But that there’s freedom even to change certain things about tradition. I mean, I guess that’s appropriate for the context of this podcast. But I’ve heard someone say that tradition is like, is like changing a slow moving ship, you know, it doesn’t, doesn’t, you know, it’s not like a car and you’re like, like a whip around? It’s like, “Okay, here we go….” Um, but yeah, I think I think recognizing that, you know, the traditions we have didn’t have to be is is framed in a way. Because it you’re like, “oh, wow, well, this is this is like a little bit more. Again, hermeneutics, like bringing in yourself to the conversation, you know, the fact that when you start to look at denominations, and the fact that denominations are different, and you’re kind of like, “wait a second, does one denomination kind of have, you know, do they have the ‘one true perspective’ over all the others?” How does that is that even logical, you know, and realizing, realizing that there are things we’re all wrong about, it’s actually extremely freeing, that we might have a view of truth, but we don’t have the same views. Again, truth can be a whole other conversation. And finding respect in that that’s something that’s been, again, a theme for me over the past year is, “oh, this tradition might not be my tradition. Can I respect it? Can I see where they’re valuing truth? You know, and maybe yes, there’s still points, you’re probably going to disagree, but it looking a little bit different. Now, I think, you know, I started with freedom, I probably should have started with the constricting side. 

But the constricting side comes from the fact that I think, when we view it as like, “this is the way it is, this is just how we’ve got to, you know, worship and pray and do this. And that, and this is the way it’s always been.” That’s just, that’s, I don’t even think that’s really reality. Most of the way we practice faith in our traditions, in the 21st century, have developed quite a bit over the last 200 years, and changed dramatically from how they would have done it before. You know, Exhibit A, we use electricity in our services. You know, that’s just a very blatant thing we have usually, a lot of times people have guitars, you wouldn’t have had that even in, you know, the latter part of the 20th century did that become accepted. Because for a long time, you’re like, “you can only you know, use the organ” or what have you. So how things change, that’s the freedom. 

I think what’s restricting is anytime there was–I wish I could remember who said it, because was such a big thing. years ago, I read this quote, that was like, “concepts, create idols.” The whole thing was “concept create idols, only wonder understands.” Which, of course, that’s very, you know, existential in a way, I guess. You know, in terms of like living and pursuing this idea of wonder, and I think that’s freeing, too. But concepts when we try to like, yeah, anytime we try and write something in stone, I think we’re already doing something very, very tricky. You know, what I mean? Like, that’s, that’s inherently limiting, because you say, this can’t be changed, you know, here you go. Here it is. And, and I think that even actually, what’s so fascinating is that makes it that does something in our minds, because again, you know, as you and I think I’ve seen a lot in our, in our studies, the self that you bring, you know, your epistemic location, your experiences is always part of the hermeneutic process of anything you interact with. But when you have something so solid, it almost, we see things in the 21st century as, “Oh, well, it’s, you know, it’s just this way everyone sees it the same way.” I think it actually breaks something in how we know that we like in the process of learning to bring ourselves. I don’t know if I said that very clearly.

It’s like, I think the whole idea of hermeneutics is very freeing, and I think too, but like that, we’re just not. “In my tradition growing up. It’s like, “well read the Bible and you know what it says.” “Read the Bible. That’s the truth.” And I never even for the longest time even thought about the fact that like, I’m reading this with my experience in tow. Sure, or I’m reading this differently. So anyway, I digress. But

Kay
Well, that that is completely All right. I think that that you’re getting at something that’s really fascinating to me here, in the past off between generations, where we, we have a sense of the Church, of governments, of all these different pieces of who we are and the social groupings that we we participate in, we have a sense of them standing in time, we have a sense of them, crossing generations, and they do in some way. But it’s more of a “pass off,” where none of the people who wrote any of our constitutions are still alive, they haven’t been alive for generations, and each subsequent generation has died. And so we each take on that mantle, and that’s true of faith no less. We might have a book that has words that might stay about the same. But that doesn’t mean that we’re not experiencing it anew. That doesn’t mean that that we’re not freshly coming to it, because we necessarily must come to our lives fresh, we come to our lives as babies, we haven’t experienced anything, when we when we come to our faith tradition. And I think that you’re getting at something that’s really powerful about even approaching religion with authenticity in mind. And it’s the notion that we’re thrown into reality that we, we emerge. And it’s now our choice to to do with that what we will. And, and so maybe this is where Sartre can be really useful, because we recognize with him that our lives are really, really radically ours to do with. And even even if we really do believe in God, well, that doesn’t mean that our actions necessarily, you know, have to follow an in a very particular stream. We have the choice to follow, to not follow, whatever it might be. And so there’s a lot that’s happening here, conceptually, but what I’m really curious about is what’s happening in terms of felt experience. You’ve been mentioning a lot about social interactions, and we’ve been kind of dancing around that. So maybe maybe delving a little bit deeper there. You did your undergrad in creative nonfiction. And, you know, many would say that, that that’s the maybe the most authentic of artistic utterances, right? It’s it’s writing things that that you believe are true, in a creative way, right? But has your perception of authenticity changed as you’ve worked through your philosophy degree? Is it different now than it was when you were really just focusing on creative nonfiction?

Kristen
Yeah, yeah. Short answer. Yes, for sure. Sure. Now that it has to do with a lot of various factors, I mean, creative nonfiction, I think, all I think all nonfiction is creative nonfiction, with the guise, but um, anytime you write something, you’re making choices about what to highlight and how to demonstrate it. Now, the thing about undergrad that was so complicated is that, you know, you’re so new to writing and you’re, you know, you’re so devastated if anyone says anything bad about your writing, because you’re like, “but this is my soul!” And it’s actually really not because you’re just at least for me, you’re just beginning to learn, you know, the fear of writing something that you didn’t even know existed inside, you know, your own thoughts, and things like that, and what you discover in writing and how to let something beautiful, like take a different form, because writing you know, itself is so different. Like, you can’t capture the–you shouldn’t try to capture something like music, in writing as if it’s going to be the same. It’s going to change forms, and that’s fine. You can still write about music, but you have to know that you’re not trying to, you know, mimic it or make it look identical. You’re saying something different about it, because it’s got to take this different lens, you know, even movies the way people write about movies. I’m really I said anime earlier. I’m really into Hayao Miyazaki movies right now, I don’t know if you’ve seen any of them. It’s like Spirited Away. Things like that. Actually, there’s one that you were talking about earlier, it’s called The Wind Rises. And his decision is basically he’s he’s trying to work on this airplane, or he’s got–his wife has tuberculosis–and he doesn’t know which thing to choose, like, does he work in this airplane for the war? Or does he stay with his wife? So it was very similar. I was like, “this is the same situation!” The other thing is I was at that point. I would say more—this just has to be a factor. I was more like dogmatically located in my faith probably, like things didn’t bother me because I felt like a possessor of truth, and I had a lot of certainty in that. It was only this year, you know, year two of my degree. And I’ve mentioned this to you before, that I realized I probably came to do this philosophy degree to get an apologetics degree. [laughs] And that’s fine. Even that was probably an authentic desire to be like, “I know, I’m smart. And I know I care about this thing. I just want to be able to prove it to other people who think I’m stupid.” Which of course, there’s some amount of pride there. But I don’t think, again, if your motive is like, “this is the thing that saves.” You know, that’s not really a negative motive. You know what I mean? 

Kay
There’s an authenticity there.

Kristen
Yeah, totally. So, you know, there’s some complications, like, again, there’s a little bit at least—you know—and I’m trying to speak mainly from my own experience, there’s a little bit of like a control freak factor of like, “I can control other people and get them to believe this!” You know, or like, “obviously, they have to see it’s true.” And a lot of that has changed. A lot of that view, I’ve definitely been like, “why would I ever try and, you know, do anything apologetic in nature, per se?” Again, there’s still things that can, there’s still things that can happen that are beautiful in that realm, I think. But, I’m just not as interested in convincing people of things because I think that’s too much of our occupation. I mean, that’s, that’s it. It’s really funny, because a lot of the empiricists, it’s very much their occupation of like, “here’s how everyone previously has got it wrong. And I will now tell you how it’s right.” And here’s the tabula rasa. But (that’s John Locke, for those who don’t know, not, not an exact quote, obviously.) But, um, I think that’s the thing. There’s this this certainty that I think I even probably wanted, even in the fact that it was creative nonfiction, that’s funny that philosophy has had to, like unteach me, you know, like, a reframe for me. And that’s been—I’m very grateful for that experience. So there’s things that also happened between undergrad and grad school that like I am, this is I have to, you know, this affects my experience, but so I’ll acknowledge it, like, I was working with a Christian organization in Ecuador for a long time, through like, three years, and that really changed a lot of my perceptions of the world, really, and myself, you know? And so I think, philosophy has provided a lot more maybe meat to chew on as to like, “why was this such a complicated process?” You know, I think things were just simpler when I was an undergrad, too, I had a more one-dimensional view of things that was like, “Okay, well, it’s gonna go like this, I’ll be married by age 24. And it’ll be fun,” you know, and then when things don’t go that way, you’re kind of like, “Wait a second, Hold on, wait, what? You know…” which is fine. It’s actually that all this is very humbling, and has made so much room for other things I could never have anticipated. And I think that’s beautiful. But that is very frightening, especially I think, in your mid 20s. You’re like, “nothing’s going according to the playbook.” You know? 

Kay
Right. It’s interesting that you’re tracking this change, to my mind, at least, where you had a sense of authenticity before. It seems like a, you know, you felt authentic. You were going to confirm your beliefs, going to back up the things that you really, really believed. And yet, now, that’s been destabilized. And so in some sense, perhaps you feel less authentic, or perhaps you look back on your life and you think that you haven’t been altogether that authentic. But then at the same time, perhaps you’ve recognized what Sartre has to say about authenticity, which is that we’re only authentic when we really recognize our freedom and our freedom to work with what we’ve got. Whereas before, perhaps it was more a sense of prescribed truths, prescribed realities that you had to just kind of buy into. And of course, that’s complicated. And the interplay there is so difficult to figure out and, and so then what I’m wondering is, what does it look like when we’re trying to be authentic in community? That is, can we be authentic in community. And really what differentiates authenticity when we’re, you know, “alone,” from when we’re in a communal space when we’re around others, for that matter, can we ever be alone with our actions? Or are they necessarily part of a community?

Kristen
Oh, man, so much stuff to interact with there. I’ll rewind just a tiny bit in terms of the intro to your question. And yes, like, I, it’s, it’s hard to say, in one respect, I can look back and say, “No, I wasn’t being authentic.” I was so obliged, you know, I was I was like, living again, into this perception of who I was supposed to be. Well, that’s not authentic. But also, I would not have known that—I couldn’t have recognized that. And I really wanted, you know, so many of the things that I would have said I wanted, at least in a sense, again, maybe they were not, maybe I wasn’t informed enough, but I was doing things I would say with “integrity,” you know, what I mean, at least I thought, and maybe it was, I’ve used this, you know, symbol a lot, but maybe it was blinders on maybe it was like, this is something I have to do, “I can’t consider what’s over there, my left or to my right.” Um, and yet, you know, there’s, there’s something at play there in terms of, “could I’ve even done things differently and totally experiences reformed me in different ways, or re-helped me revision or to see or taking the blinders off?” You know, and I’m not sure about that. And this is actually a question that’s quite troubling to me now. Another, another key thing that has occupied a lot of my thinking process is: when I see people do things, and I know they’re doing them with integrity, and I disagree. You know, and again, this, I think the easy example to look at is when someone’s doing something, you know, hateful. I’ll bring this up, because I’m gonna use this in my own project. But it’s, I think it’s pretty relevant to our whole conversation. When they stormed the Capitol in the US, there was a video that came out of people praying, thanking God, that they had ‘won the Capitol,’ or, you know, 

Kay
-Goosebumps. 

Kristen
Yeah, yeah. And I talked to Myron about this actually. It felt so familiar, the prayer that they were praying. And I was like, “they really mean this.” You know what I mean? They’re not doing this- they’re not doing this just to show off, like, they are really believing this. And I’m like, “this is- how do you reconcile this thing that I’ve done in so many similar ways?” “Where have I been wrong?” You know, like, and how do you even know, how do you start to assess that? That’s a very, I mean, for me, this is troubling. You know, it’s, it’s like, how can something be done with a motive that I, I recognize, I know, that I’ve had in a similar way, and yet I disagree with it, you know, so fundamentally? I mean, that’s, I don’t know if I can answer that question. You know, for myself, even. But it’s been ongoing in my mind. 

So in terms of social, the social element, you know, and what we do authentically in, in relation, and then on our own, socially, I think there’s, I mean—again, psychology comes into play—there’s so many factors in terms of, you know, when you need other people to live and an approval from other people, something I’ve been learning a tiny bit about is like attachment style, and things like that, and how, you know, if you’re just confident around other people and not worried about like, losing, you know, social relationships, you might comport yourself in a different way than if you’re anxiously attached or you’re scared, you know, you’re going to say something and lose all your friends. And, and I, and I think a lot of those factors influences. I mean, you know, under the level of awareness, and that’s something, you know, I think, I—and I think part of this actually comes from being a woman and different things that are internalized is like, always trying to impress people not trying to seem too pushy or bossy, you know, words that are applied in certain contexts, especially work, you know, where I’m like, “Oh, I want to do great, but I don’t want to be seen, like, you know, I’m being x way.” A lot of motivators that come into play, again, in different contexts. So socially, I do think we should still aspire to I think this, I think we’re kind of hitting on the same notion of authenticity, again, in terms of Being in terms of wanting to be not so coerced into acting a certain way by the immediate factors around us because maybe this—dare I say—internal compass that is more is the louder or voice –I’m mixing metaphors. Now in terms of the self by yourself. It’s so funny. Yeah, I wonder how much of what we do is just for ourselves or by ourselves, and especially within, you know, a context of believing in God because, you know, I, and this is almost reflex of you know, I’m on a walk or something, and I see the mountains, which are so beautiful. I’m like, “Oh, God, thank you for those mountains, those are beautiful. I’m like, this is awesome.” You know, and both in the maybe the good and the bad. You know, like, there are times where things are hard. And I’m like, I think, again, maybe the impulse is still just a prayer of like, “God, you know, I don’t really understand. And this is odd.”

Kay
It’s so interesting that even in these moments when you feel by yourself, or when we would normally say, “well, Kristen is by herself right now,” you’re, you’re still measuring authenticity in terms of this, this external being this God. And that’s really interesting. And I think that many of us can probably, for being honest with should probably relate to that, that often, even even when we are, you know, experiencing, say, the dark night of our soul, when we are alone, and and really do feel alone. There’s something about that, that that demands crying out, and why does one cry out except to try to communicate with something else? It seems like we’re inescapably social. And also, inescapably trying to be authentic. And that’s, that’s so difficult to, to hold at once. And, and so I think that, you know, perhaps a problem with the, you know, the striving for authenticity, is just that, that that release of understanding the social factors at play. And like you were talking about with, with the folks who stormed the Capitol, where–I can at least speak for myself, and I’m sure most of our listeners would probably agree that there are some moral wrong happening there. And that these folks are whether they’re being authentic or not doing something that is, to some extent, a moral evil. And yet, as you’re saying, there’s an authenticity, but we’re judging them as moral agents, we’re judging them in community, we’re judging them as other beings caught with other beings. And so I guess I’m curious what you do. You’ve been touching on faith a lot. And I’ve been kind of, you know, moving there. And what we’ll get back to that in a second. But when we make mistakes, and I’m not talking about the rioters at this point, they seem to be doing this very intentionally. When you actually make a mistake, this thing that we call a mistake, do you experience that is inauthenticity or as something else?

Kristen
I think I want to experience it as an authenticity. I’m probably already doing something. Yeah, I’m already doing something a little bit curious. Because I think in a more brave sense, I probably should acknowledge an action I have done as just wrong. And then “I did it” taking the responsibility there, which I think maybe is a better, you know, it waited here to Sartre’s view of freedom, you know, saying both I had the freedom for good and for bad. And in this instance, I did something bad, as opposed to what essentially might be boiling down to like an excuse of, “Oh, well, I wouldn’t, you know, I was underslept, I’m sorry, or I was running late.” And you know, all the different things. Or “sorry, I was distracted. And I just said that out of you know, being in a hurry.” You know, there’s so many things. I’m very good at making excuses.

Kay
You’re a creative writer, very creative, um, when when you feel like you have betrayed your moral sensibilities. So let’s take this you know, very, particularly to your experience, when you feel like perhaps you’ve sinned against God. Does that feel like a rupture in existence and you’re being we’ve been talking about being? Does it feel like you have actually committed some sort of offense against Being? Or is it something different than that? Do you actually feel more authentic for it?

Kristen
Hmm. Wow, this is so fascinating. I’ll be thinking about this for so long. I myself have been trained to think of it as something that is, again, within this moral framework of “Oh, I did something wrong.” And then, you know, very rapidly attempting to remedy that like, praying for forgiveness being like, “Okay, get out of here” and all this, you know, moving on. I think that process is inauthentic because it doesn’t- again, I use the word weight earlier doesn’t give proper weight to reality. And I, if you think about that, in terms of, I mean, again, I’m bringing it back into context of social relationships. But if your friend did something against you, and then they’re like, “oh, okay, sorry, can you just forgive me?” “Okay, thanks.” Right? You know, you’re like, Um, “hello?” You know, like, it’s, it actually speaks against there being because when you’re not willing to acknowledge it as who a part of who you currently are, then First of all, you’re likely to do something similar in the future. And because you’re not addressing again, it’s kind of this what’s the source, source of the self, the source of your being? I think that’s very different from, you know, just mere behavior. And so again, this is where I do think the concept of loving the right things is quite compelling. Because if you also hurt something you love, or you do something, you recognize, and it’s, again, not aligned with that, I think it’s a much more personal process of kind of recognizing that and saying, “This is- why, you know, why did I do this?” Maybe it was acting out of weakness, and there’s still something true about me in that weakness. You know, so again, it’s, it’s very humbling. And I think maybe that’s, again, I just emphasize, we shouldn’t rush to negate these negative things, I think it’s a lot more of understanding why they are part of our being, why they’re a part of ourselves currently. And that that can change but there’s, it means something, you know, so a rupture, maybe not so much, as much as it’s complicated inside, you know, I think there’s always, you know, the “Know thyself” kind of concept. It’s actually very hard to do. Even in introducing oneself at the beginning of a podcast.

Kay
Absolutely, yeah. Knowing ourselves is so complicated, and, and yet we have expectations for others, that they, when they act, that they are acting fully from themselves. It’s really interesting, that the standards that we bring for ourselves in our supposed authenticity, the excuses that we make for ourselves. And yet the cold light of reason that we kind of apply to other people, “you’re being inauthentic, you’re being fake.” Whereas for yourself, when you commit the same action, you see it as a just a kind of a step off the path or, or stepping, you know, away from who you normally are. And I do want to move us, you know, not not focus too much on kind of sin language. And, and not so much on the question of, you know, “what’s wrong in an absolute sense?” Because that’s, that’s pretty tough to actually nail down. I don’t think this podcast is trying to figure that out. But what I’m curious a final question is, what do you see as the role of a person of faith in being authentic? And is that different from another person? Or is that in fact, the same burden? Do we all as humans have the same burden of authenticity? Or is it rather different when we are subscribing to a particular faith tradition?

Kristen
Yeah, I think I’ll frame it a little bit. If you’d asked me this an undergrad, I would have said, “Oh, yeah, you know, as people faith, we’ve got to be the most authentic, the most loving,” You know, and that just would have been that, yeah, the impulse. And I think that involves a little bit of othering, you know, in terms of, “Oh, well, these people don’t have access, you know, whether it be just to knowledge of the truth from the Bible, or even the Spirit.” And and I think that’s a little bit different. Because I, from my view, now, just because I see, I think, I think I would have been limiting how God can work in the world there. Again, that’s a whole other conversation on, well, many things coming from that. But I think I would have seen historically would have seen, “oh, God works exclusively within the context of faith communities, or, you know, that’s the only people who want it.” So, you know, whatever. But, um, I think that’s a little bit limiting on God’s power too. So in terms of now and being authentic. Yeah, I think, you know, if anything, and maybe this is just a small piece of being authentic, is really recognizing. Yeah, that I think going back to the idea of thrownness, you know, how it’s very much fortunate that many people if they think, you know, that this is the -If we’re following God, and that, and we’ve been shown this is true, I mean, that has to be a gift, you know, in terms of you, once you start taking pride, like “we’ve got this knowledge.” I just think that’s a little bit. I think that’s a little bit off the point, you know what I mean? And also then recognizing what we’ve been taught in terms of being good, and how that all still affects us. You know, I think just being honest about that. I think it’s helpful for me in terms of being authentic and recognizing that it is just complicated. 

I get I’m not really helping summarize things here. But I yeah, I think there’s something important in saying, “okay, all these factors come into my life. I didn’t have to be born in this time, you know, I didn’t have to be necessarily lose faith, and I am and what does that mean?” And “is it true? “Then I want to follow it truly” you know, I want to, I don’t want to, for me, right now. It’s I don’t want to be denying certain things. I don’t want to have blinders on. Because I feel compelled to do so. You know, I do think it’s like acknowledging the things that are complicated, which is what’s happening, I think, in this conversation, acknowledging it’s probably not as cut and dry as maybe we thought in our younger years. And that’s okay. And I think, again, I think in the context of community, providing space for that, and love for for that in the differences of people’s paths, you know, we’re not all we’re just not all gonna align on stuff from the get-go. That’s very clear. Different blinders, different lives, can we make room for people in those differences? How does that look? I think that’s, I think that’s a newer question within faith context. So yeah.

Kay
Awesome. Well, Kristen, thank you so much for joining us in the shift podcast. It’s great to speak with you. Oh,

Kristen
Man, a pleasure to be here.

Kay
Well, now I am here with Sophia, having just finished this conversation with Kristin, and I’m wondering if we can return to an opening question. For you, Sophia, what is your authentic self? Who are you?

Sophia
How long do we have? [laughs] I think that question has been the question of all time and philosophy and in spiritual communities of “what is that authentic self or that capital ‘S’ self?” I know that Richard Rohr and many other spiritual teachers reflect on that. For me, I’ve been on a bit of a journey over the last 10 or 15 years, of I grew up with a name that had lots of associations with it. It was Mary Kay. So a name that many people would say, “do you drive a pink Cadillac?” Or are you just lots of connotations that went with that name. And in 2008, I went through a journey of connecting in with Divine Wisdom, or Sophia, and had a bit of a mystical experience. And as I journeyed with learning about the qualities that are associated with the name, and the entity and all the myths and stories about “Sophia,” what I heard was stories that felt more true to me than the name that I had lived with for nearly 40 years, or just past 40 years. And so as I look to what is the true self for my self, it’s “how do I live more fully in the qualities of Sophia, and live into this name that I’ve chosen for myself?” And that really, I say, chose me, in many ways. And so I look to “where do I express wisdom?” “Where do I express grounded connection to the earth, yet a more cosmic perspective?” “How do I embody compassion?” –Since many of the stories about Divine Wisdom are about bringing compassion and care to the earth. And so on the days when I’m able to lean into those qualities, I’m living more true to what I believe to be my true self, than on the days when I might connect to older parts of myself that might react or be in a certain way of being. So, that’s what for me feels like authenticity, is finding those qualities that feel most true to my soul’s calling and living each day reminding myself of those.

Kay
Wow, that’s beautiful.

Sophia
And how about for you?

Kay
Yes, I really connect with and resonate with what you’ve said about the day where you asked yourself, “Am I connecting with Sophia?” In the in the day was today, the day that did this? I, myself have relatively recently started the the journey of transitioning. And, I’ve been very annoyed with the number of people who have told me, “wow, you you’ve found your authentic self, I’m so proud of you.” Which I- it’s very kind of them to say that, but I don’t feel any more authentic. I don’t feel any more. Like I just wake up in the morning and I’m just suddenly just a happy woman. No, instead, it’s that daily slog. The journey of authenticity isn’t one in which we make a single choice–at least in my experience–that then, is always and forever the authentic choice that was made and we are now authentic, but rather it’s a daily unfolding, a moment by moment unfolding even. And for me, that this you know, my gender journey has has been one I think of greater authenticity or ever increasing authenticity, perhaps, but not one in which suddenly I have flipped a switch, gone from inauthentic to authentic. And I think that hopefully that points to something about what authenticity is, something about it being a collection of moments. Perhaps it points to what we are–I don’t know.

Sophia/
That rings really true for me. That it’s like that moment by moment congruency of aligning ourself with the idea of who we know ourselves to be. And being true to what it is for today. And constantly updating that and discerning that and having enough time and spaciousness in our life, to be able to tap into that self awareness, so that we might ‘tune in.’ And if today, it’s something very different than yesterday, of living that truth. And if that means going and renegotiating relationships or discerning different things, allowing ourselves to drop into that each and every day. So yeah, that speaks to me.

Kay
Excellent. Now, this brings up a further question for me, you’re a minister. And you’ve just articulated a moment by moment, unfolding of truth, daily truth. What do you do in religious communities? You in particular–how do you approach in your, your walk in religion–this authentic journey? Do you find that this community of people that it’s more challenging to be authentic than it is in this kind of idealized Sartrean sense of ‘the self’ just being authentic?

Sophia
I think it’s difficult. I think, one, it’s difficult to really know, in all of the different relationships, who that true authentic self is. And once life gets going, and community starts happening, and you’re serving a ministry, to make sure you take the time to come back and reconnect with that. I know I’m my best self, when I’m most playful, whether it’s with children or adults. And I know when I get in my serious business mode, which is an old part of me, and my identity, that’s not true to who I am today. And that takes away from the best of me, because what I believe is that as I’m able to bring the best of me into community, I thrive, and so does the community. But there’s lots of pressures to conform to certain norms, and to be true to your word. So if you’ve said something… and sometimes it gets messy. And sometimes people’s worst selves show up in community. And so how do we in community call people in? Call people to that higher idea of their true selves and give space for authentic, true selves to interact with each other, even if there is conflict, even if there is disagreements, but allowing the space for people to be true, to that deeper, authentic self.

Kay
There’s something to that, that strikes of mysticism, which makes sense being you as a person who is so mystically inclined, so tapped into that journey. And what I’m struck by is the inward journey that that marks even as you’re describing the outward journey, the  turning to the other, to community. It’s also somehow dwelling into the self, there’s somehow an element of this, that–it’s hard to put to words. But there’s an element here of extending yourself even though it doesn’t always feel authentic, and in the sense that Sartre thinks it somehow connects with what we are, maybe as humans, maybe as believers, whatever, we might choose to label that. I’m just very impressed with your particular approach to this as a religious leader.

Sophia
And it’s not every day. It’s a moment by moment, coming back to practicing the presence, making sure that I’m doing the practices that are important to me, to be tuning into that. And then also inviting people into that. And so that’s what I’d like to do with our listeners here is to invite them into that day by day practice, in their morning, waking hours of really tuning into that deeper part of themselves through a few breaths as they are awakening and maybe coming up with like we invited them in the eulogy is coming up with a few of those qualitative words:

What’s the quality today of your true self that you want to make sure expresses in what you do and who you are during that day. And just making that a daily reminder of “tune in.” “Express.” And then maybe in the evening doing a bit of journaling, or a review of “how did that quality express?” What opportunities arose for me to express if, let’s say it’s forgiveness that day? What opportunities arose to express that quality? And that’s a way they can start to begin to explore, “who is my true self?” “What are the qualities of that true self?” “And how might I more aligned my life to living in that way?” 

And so friends, we hope that this has been a helpful practice of inviting you in, into yourself and into community. And so we would love for you to engage with us through Instagram, through Twitter, through Facebook as we engage with the topic of authenticity. So make sure you keep checking back to shiftpodcast.ca for new episodes, because they’ll be coming. Thanks for joining Shift Podcast.