We start this episode with an excerpt from No Exit, a play by philosopher Jean Paul Sartre (there is a link to the play in the show notes below).

• What do we mean by authentic self?
• How do we know when we are being it?
• How do we handle not feeling authentic?

Join us as we process these questions and more with our guest, Kristen Tideman, a philosophy student.

Welcome to Shift!

Episode 003

Jean Paul Sartre

Kay
It is not for nothing that we are discussing authenticity today, after our episode on death. Last episode we drew your attention to a particularly fraught moment in your life: the last funeral that you attended. Think again, what did people say?

I imagine it proceeded much as any obituary does: perhaps the dearly departed “is in heaven now,” or “died peacefully.” In fact, I doubt that you have heard many–if any–original eulogies. Why is this? Why does the last second of a person’s life matter more to us than the two-odd billion seconds before it?   

No, lies like this are not evil. Instead, they are in-authentic. These lies and evasions allow us to hide ourselves from a terrible reality: our very own deaths. Our conversation is about the opposite of a boring eulogy. Today, we are talking about authenticity.

“I died too soon” says Garcin in Jean-Paul Sartre’s No Exit. In this play, Garcin, along with the other two protagonists have recently arrived in Hell.

Inez, one of the other inmates, replies to Garcin, saying, “One always dies too soon–or too late. And yet one’s whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are–your life, and nothing else”

If we are our lives, then what we do with them is crucially important. The question that Sartre is implicitly asking us is almost trite, so many people have asked it before: If you were to die now, how would your life stack up to your supposed values?

Living authentically, at least to Sartre and many other existentialists, is a matter of grasping our own freedom. Indeed, the authentic person is, for Sartre, the person who recognizes their own radical, terrifying, exhilarating freedom and lives into it. We are free to do what we personally feel is the right choice, and we are authentic if we take that freedom to do the right thing. By this metric, aligning our ethical assumptions with our actions is authenticity.

But is Sartre’s the correct way to pursue the task of authenticity? For that matter, why is it even desirable for us to attempt to be authentic? Further, Sartre’s approach is decidedly individualistic. We are each “thrown” into the world, and we alone can grasp our radical, lonely freedom to choose the thing we see as right.

What does authenticity look like in the context of a community? What does authenticity look like in the context of a religious community?

Here to puzzle through the possibilities of authenticity and community is Kristen Tideman, a student of philosophy who is in the process of completing her masters degree.

I would normally introduce you a bit more, but given the topic, I’d rather begin this conversation with your own approach to authenticity in mind. So then, who are you?

Kristen
Well, it’s like weird that it’s such a tough question to answer, you know? Because we say it all the time, kind of. And I have been thinking a lot recently about kind of identity and how that shapes the world. So things that I will say often–especially here in Canada–is where I’m from: In the US. I’m a person from Pennsylvania, I’m a grad student. I have two jobs, one working with axe seminaries and one [laughs] serving beer training posts. I’m a wonderer, I have weird obsessions with anime, and other things. And then I let them go. And I’m, yeah, a member of a group of friends. I have two sisters, parents that are pretty cool. So however you think I am most identified that’s–you can pick your poison there.

Kay
Right. Pick your poison. It’s interesting. I’m just noticing that all of the pieces that you were drawing at were parts of community or things around you things that that almost impinge on your life, things that affect who you are kind of externally. That’s really interesting. I wonder, if you had to pick one, one? Answer–if you if you had a “yes” or “no”, which–and this is a darn hard question–would you see yourself as authentic?

Kristen
Oh, see, now now you’re sounding like, now you’re sounding like my therapist, and I’m, you know, I’m gonna question I’m like, how can I pick an answer? That’s not going to condemn me? in, in my lived experience, I feel authentic. So… already I’m avoiding your question but still, but I know when I’m approaching things, I say, you know, whatever that kind of sentiment is I’m like, “Yes, this is… I’m doing this.” “This feels true.” You know? And then when that doesn’t measure up against the standard that I’m already applying to myself, I’m like, “that’s not me!” If I’m doing something, I’m like, “Oh, that was a mistake.” So I’m like, “that’s not Included in my identity.” 

But how can I even? How can I even say that? You know, that alone, that’s a choice to that I’ve made to say, “hey, that’s not me, because I didn’t do it. That aligns with some certain, again, a standard, not always articulated, that I could live up to.” 

Kay
Wow, that’s very interesting, I think we definitely should come back to mistakes in a little bit. And what it is that happens between when we feel authentic, and we’re living into our moral systems, and what happens when we’re not doing that, but I don’t want to throw people in too much.

Kristen
We’re gonna get there.

Kay
We’ll get there! So there are a lot of different perceptions of what makes for an authentic action or an authentic life. And today, we’re approaching that question with with Sartre in mind. Clearly, that’s not the only way that one has to do that. People have have talked about authenticity for quite some time. But if you had to take a stab at expounding what authenticity is for Sartre, what would you say?

Kristen
Yeah, and I will say, I feel that I coul be more familiar with Sartre. But, my understanding in this view of “radical freedom” is that you almost don’t have to do the thing that we’re so used to doing of, “oh, where do I look for this answer… what to do in this exact instance?” You know, “who will tell me?” As much as “here, the choice lies in front of me.” And I can interact with it. I can–like the agency–and also that, yeah, it’s not, it’s not fated, you know, that what we do actually has importance, can change the future. 

And so yeah, and I think through the play, No Exit, you see that those actions then change the narrative of each life, you know, and again, the summation, this idea that “the totality of life,” is what’s weighed on the scale. I think that’s, I think that Sartre’s kind of concept of like, “have you, have you taken the responsibility to be good?” “And what have you done with it?” So that’s my perception of Sartre’s view. 

Kay
That’s really interesting, the, the weightiness there is really striking. That, that authenticity isn’t a, it’s not a trite thing for Sartre–I don’t think it’s a trite thing for any of us–but it seems particularly so for these philosophers, that the decisions that we make are so deeply impactful to our beings, to what and who we are. What do you think, what do you think for Sartre Is, is the, the greatest challenge to being authentic?

Kristen
Oh, man, well, this is a difficult question, because, you know, I could look at Sartre, or, you know–but you want us to stay there not, myself yet, right? We’ll get there. 

Kay
Right, we’ll get we’ll get to you very soon.

Kristen
I’m even I’m trying to put this in the lens of, No Exit. I think some of it has to do. It’s very funny, again, I don’t expect everyone to read this play, but there’s a character–Inez–however you say it, and, and she’s, she keeps saying, like, “I’m rotten to the core, I’m nothing.” And, you know, even psychologically, it seems that she kind of lives into that identity. Everything she’s done is like, “Well, I have, you know, like, that’s, that’s what I do. That’s who I am.” So again, it’s kind of this factor of like, well, “if I’m nothing if I just work at the post office,” or whatever, you know, and “I’m, you know, rotten, and I help like, against,” and eventually she helps kill this guy. That’s just who, yeah, that’s who she was–kind of like nothing. So, in a way, it’s kind of, she didn’t embrace this responsibility, it seems in her own life to say, “Well, yeah, I kind of, I kind of have this weird position. I’m not anyone of high standing. And yet I still have, you know, freedom.” So it seems the avoidance, you know, kind of rejecting that responsibility is what costs Inez in the end.

Kay
Right. Yeah. I’m definitely seeing the sense that there’s, there’s an interplay between our,  actions and our moral systems here, where we often think, kind of in one direction that you know, “what, what I believe about the world, that that impacts who I am.” Or the other way, you know, how you act that that shows who you are. And it seems like there’s something going back and forth here: that an authentic person recognizes both that their actions impact who and what they become, and also that what they believe about who they are, that that impacts their actions. And definitely, in No Exit you see that after, like, a life has come full circle, what it is that happens to the the human body, the human mind that has been inauthentic. 

I think that a really interesting example that Sartre points to was–and I’m not sure if this is true or not that this actually happened–but I remember that he talks about a student who came to him, and this was during the the French Resistance. And the student had to decide whether he was going to go and fight in the resistance, or stay at home and care for his mom. So on the one hand, he had a, a large cause that was going to impact the future, this war that was deciding fascism, freedom, democracy, he could be part of something bigger. But also, he had to decide whether it would be more important to care for his mom, something more insignificant than the war, but ultimately something that he could impact more readily.

And the point isn’t, which choice is the right choice in the grand scheme for Sartre, the point is, rather, which is the right choice for you, which is the right choice for your moral sensibilities. And it doesn’t really matter what the student did. What matters is whether they did that with an alignment to their their moral systems. So do you find that compelling? Do you think that this particular approach to authenticity that starts approach and many of the existentialists, do you think that it’s, well, for the lack of a better term, “authentic” or a “good” approach to it? 

Kristen
Yeah. Oh, man, how interesting. I mean, compelling, you know, for sure, in terms of what a fascinating idea, and even what even what you’re saying, in terms of this exact example. I think, this is very near to life example, for many people. Not in such a grand scale, but where you’re, you’re, you kind of have to navigate between two good decisions, you know, to potentially beneficial things. And what you’re measuring against. Now, it’s funny to me, too, that even in that, you know, we’re even evaluating, “Is this a good metric?” We’re kind of even reapplying it to our own standards as we’re approaching this idea of authenticity as Sartre in the other existentialists are evaluating it. So! So if I’m going to already start to complicate things. –I’m in a class right now about human nature. And we’re reading Charles Taylor, which, I’m maybe already giving away too much. But Charles Taylor, for those who don’t know–Canadian philosopher, hermeneutic philosopher, so very interpretive. And I guess, technically Christian. –Maybe not even needing to put the word technically there. 

But yeah, he, in the in the book Sources of the Self that we’ve been reading, which is an idea that I think plays into this. So much of what we focus on, is the action itself. So, am I doing–yeah–am I doing good? Is this the good thing to do? Yeah, what is the good thing to do is this action? You know, does it equate? Kind of this sort of measuring process. 

And the idea that he posits that I think is relevant here is that that’s maybe the wrong framework for assessing this, which I think is what the existentialist are doing, even if it’s bringing it back to authenticity of like, “Is this truest for me? Is this is this my choice to do this good thing? Or is this the best in my moral framework?” He’s saying, “that’s still–it seems like that’s still kind of besides the point. Because there’s this other option of being first.

Which again, that seems, again, how you define terms can make things complicated. Maybe that is what the existentialists are getting at, but, he says, we’re so busy waiting. “Is this good?” “Is this morally right?” This moralism that has kind of invaded who we are that we’re actually not concerned with what we love. And if we were more focused on loving things that are good, and letting ourselves be in love with what is good, that would actually shape more of our actions, but we wouldn’t have to think about, “is this good?” “are we measuring along that?” More of, “oh, well, I know like what I love and I, so I do this thing, you know. Now I’m saying that–this is a fairly new idea–this is a funny time that we’re having this interview. 

And I’m I always wonder, you know, “what will my thoughts be a year from now two years from now?” And yet, you know, when something really strikes you, I think it’s something that’s already kind of been percolating inside. This is something that I’ve wondered this hits on something true to me. I think a lot of the measurements we apply to other people is along kind of the same, you know, lines of moralism in terms of, “Oh, did they do the right thing?” You know? And it’s usually “Yes, it’s against our standard.” I don’t think we’re usually measuring with either authenticity, or what they, you know, attempted to do–anything like that. It’s very much moralism. But we, I think are so socially pressured to do the same for ourselves, that, that we say, “Okay, how is this gonna look to other people?” And I think that’s a weird new standard of needing to seem good. That is that that is, even if we don’t acknowledge it, I think is even invading our own sense of how we measure what’s good. 

So I say that because I’m like, “how can you be authentic if the social pressures are so strong, that they’re even invading your subconscious?” You know, so I, you know, right now, a very easy example, for for me is, you know: “oh, no, like, did I not have my mask on in the right place?” And I wear my mask most of the time, right? But even you know, at work, occasionally, you take it down to like, drink water or something. And I’m like, “Oh, am I too close to this person?” You know, and it’s not because I’m actually completely usually concerned with like, “Am I going to spread germs to them that are dangerous?” it’s more of, “will the customer see this?” And that’s really been in my head, you know, the standard. And that’s not–I’m think that’s not authentic. I think that’s not living out of anything that’s true. And yet, I realize it’s playing into my psyche, because it’s because of social pressures whigh. again, I know we’ll get into later. 

But anyway. So these are kind of the concepts I’m I have that are making authenticity difficult, in this time and place, and other times, of course, in different ways. But yeah, 

Kay
That’s interesting. I think, I really appreciate the fact that you are maybe retaking that question of authenticity, and, you know, taking it away from, “should I go to war or not?” Because that’s not so often how we actually navigate authenticity. It’s not a question of, “Should I commit to this cause that will change the face of humanity? Even if I’m only contributing to it in a small way?” No, it’s more a question of “when I go in the supermarket, is somebody perceiving me a certain way?” “How are they perceiving me?” “And how do I feel about that?” And often, yeah, our social pressures, the pieces of what we we want to be perceived often get muddled into, mixed in with, the the parts and pieces of whatever it is that we, you know, “are.” Now I really like that you have focused us back to being and being first. When you say that I’m getting, kind of some Heidegger in the back of my head, which we’re not going to get into but, being, when you say, being that seems intrinsically connected to authenticity. So, do you experience being differently when you’re authentic versus inauthentic? That is, is your self qualitatively a different experience, is whatever it is that you are actually changed by authenticity? Or is authenticity just a label for what it is that we already are? 

Kristen
Hmm, wow, what good questions. There are several ways my mind already wants to address this. And so I’ll just pick one. Conversations we have with one another focus around health, you know, things like physical health, mental health. So in one light, I could see the “authentic self” as the healthier self, you know, in a way that if other things are like plagues, you know, or disease on the self, you know, drawing away from it being fully, you know, like, having vitality and living, you know, without, like, missing an arm or you know, having a cough or something that would damage the health, the health of the self. I think that’s one way to look at it. That’s what we aspire to. We don’t, it’s not necessarily that we’re trying to all look uniform or that it looks like a uniform thing, but the experience of the self that is almost, even just confident, you know, relaxed, not again, not kind of projecting out and going, going somewhere else but, more like “steady,” you know? And I think that’s something–again, even in talking about this, I’m measuring this very much against, like my lived experience, this is a kind of almost a feeling my way to this answer. Another way, because, and I do want to bring this up, I think the common conception of authenticity is just doing how you feel in the moment. And while I think there’s an element of that at play, like, I do think there’s something to the experience of yourself aligning with what you actually also want to be in terms of being good. Obviously, that there’s the negative side of that, if you could be acting out of how you truly do feel. And that is a very negative thing.

Which I think could have been even brought in a little bit more into No Exit, you know, like, yeah, I think with some of the crimes that the people had, I was like, well, there’s got to be more story here. Why did you kill, you know, why did you kill, I mean, the one woman kills a baby, right? You know, and I’m like, that’s, “you could write a whole lot more about this!” Which, of course, was not the, not the motive of the play.

But all the psychological factors that come in, you know, when I, and I see this in myself, when I’m acting, like–I’ll see a kid that’s throwing a temper tantrum, and I’m like, “I understand, except it’s just all inside.” You know? And some of it will come out, like, I’ll be, you know, I’ll be short with someone who’s my friend, or, you know, they did something completely unintentional. And, you know, am I acting authentic then? I mean, again–maybe–depending on how you define authentic, am I acting healthy, then? Probably not? Am I acting even how I want to act or along the standard? No, you know, if I, if I’m thinking rationally, but there’s something at play that’s still making me act in this way. And that, it does feel bad, you know, it feels negative, and I’m acting out of this negativity. 

But I again, that’s where–to complicate further–I think starts ideas of freedom. There are so many things we do to protect ourselves, to kind of defend ourselves, things we do out of pride, things we do because we don’t understand what’s going on, because we feel overwhelmed, that are factors in our decision making that are, I will say, inherent limits on freedom as embodied beings. So that’s, again, here I go, making things complicated on myself too. 

Kay
Yeah, I like that psychological angle. And it’s something that has been frowned upon in philosophy for quite some time. Yeah. And I think that, that that psychologism fear definitely finds its way into a lot of the existentialists that that they they don’t want to get too close to saying, you know, something that that would be approved in a psychological manner. And so I like to, you’re bringing that in, as in, in counterpose to that, because darn it, a kid throwing a tantrum seems to be pretty authentic. 

Kristen
Yeah! [laughs]

Kay
There seems to be a deep embodied sense of self here, where somebody’s you know, that they’re reflecting their inner state on their outer state. And yet simultaneously, we don’t necessarily look at that as a model for how we should live our lives. And so it’s good to complicate this matter, because, right, Authenticity. You can be authentic and do terrible things. And at least under this metric. And so that’s, that’s certainly a frightening, frightening possibility.

But then, what I’m wondering to kind of move this closer towards the social question that we’re hoping to get towards. What is your value system for discerning that the right actions in your life? If we’re being more specific, could you give us an example of a moment in which you felt most authentic? And then what was that like? What, what does it actually feel like to be authentic? We touched on it maybe feeling really frightening, really scary. But does it feel good as well? 

Kristen
Being authentic is almost when I’m not thinking about what I’m doing. Like when I’m in conversation, and you’re just so excited you and your conversation partner in talking about an idea, that you’re–and you know them and there’s some amount of familiarity–that you’re not even concerned about offending them, or how they’re going to perceive you. Or you know, over-joking you know, or under-joking, you know, or impressing them. All the different factors that are kind of sub motivations.

And again, they might they might be there. There’s so many things are going on within ourselves at once. However, when you don’t feel those presences and you’re just kind of focusing on the on the experience itself, you know. You’re not looking at your watch, you’re not thinking about where you have to be. There’s something in that lived experience that I think touches on authenticity. 

Kay
And it feels very much like the opposite of that that experience with the mask that you’re describing. Right? 

Kristen
Yeah, yeah. 

Kay
There’s, there’s not so much of a focus on what what, you know, the others is perceiving so much as just what you’re experiencing with that other. 

Kristen
Totally, totally. And, and I think it’s funny, because I’m even implying an amount of freedom that that person has already kind of granted to you, you know, that that maybe could even be–it’s an idea of safety–you know, where you’re, where you’re, you’re not going to be, you know, judged or looked down upon for something, because you’re just excited about digging into it, you’re curious, you know, and that’s so that’s kind of beautiful in that we, when we can grant that to one another. And that might include, you know, like, again, the element I brought up earlier of mistakes might still come into play there. But it’s not. Again, it’s not the same line, if, you know, there’s a there’s an amount of charity, I think, included in in someone’s perspective, when they say “you can say anything, I see that you’re trying to find something good.” 

You know, and that’s the beauty. I mean, I’m using the example of conversation, it can be in another, you know, it can be in another sense where you’re doing something, maybe even artistic or, or even going on a bike ride, you know, you’re not so concerned about “let’s get there fast,” as much as like, “wow, like, Oh, look at the stream, I’ll look at the birds, you know, let’s sit in the sun for a minute.” There’s similarities there in, in not having a requirement on you, you know, so, yeah, something.

Again, I think I’m just pointing to it. I don’t know if I’m really articulating it. But I think you see a little bit of what I’m saying. 

Kay
It does seem like authenticity is something that we can only gesture to that. It somehow transcends our spoken words, that it somehow moves beyond our systems. And so that’s why a question like that is very hard. But maybe, maybe going towards specificity here. In terms of system. Correct me if I’m wrong, I think you identify as a Christian. And so there seems to be a certain certain set of assumptions, of burdens upon that label, where as a person who identifies with a certain faith tradition, that you you have certain sets of obligations, maybe a set of moral obligations. So for you, if you had to state that concisely, because, right, there’s there’s so much written about what that looks like, for you, and in your own system, or your own approach to the system, what do you find maybe most constraining and most freeing about the specific system of belief and moral goodness that you ascribe to?

Kristen
Most constricting and most freeing? Yeah. So something that’s also very much occupying my mind at this time, is how much of our, the context we are born into affects, really, yeah, our perceptions of things, who we are, what we value all, again, these are external factors. However, this pertains specifically to the Christian tradition, which again, there are many traditions the tradition. Because–and this is not my original thought–but, because it could have been very different. It could have been that, you know, half the denominations, we have, never existed. It could have been, you know, what if there was nothing ever but Catholicism? What would Catholicism look like, you know? And that’s the thing that–this was a new thought to me within the past year–that, again, you know, inspired by others, not like, “I just bought it up.” But the system we have, the tradition we have was not just given to us, like, in the same way as maybe even, you know, the 10 commandments, like, here’s “Here you go, here’s the right manual for starting a church.” 

Yeah, Jesus, I was just talking about this with a friend. Jesus says very little about the church, you know, I think it’s just “on this rock, oh, build this church.” And one other reference. And that’s what you’re like “what?” You know, because I think when we read the Bible, we’re probably already doing it from a context of being within church frequently. At least I have since my young age. And I know that I remember the first time that I realized people didn’t go to church. My mom’s like, “Oh, yeah, your friends, not–when we’re like four–she’s like, your friends not gonna be at church. She doesn’t go with her family.” We’re like, “what?” Like, that was an anomaly to me. 

So, there’s a lot that’s freeing about that to realize even “Oh, that this tradition is not the thing that was given to us. We have been given, already as Christians, freedom to develop these traditions within Christianity.” And, again, kind of a kind of a crazy thought to have. But something that’s been helpful for me is, “wow, this, you know, this tradition matters immensely in my life, I think it will continue to matter, I imagine for a long time, if not the entire duration of my life–I anticipate that will involve change. In some respects it already has. Having, you know, just moved. Even when you move churches, when you move contexts, but also Yeah, and I think doing this program, things like that.

But that there’s freedom even to change certain things about tradition. I mean, I guess that’s appropriate for the context of this podcast. But I’ve heard someone say that tradition is like, is like changing a slow moving ship, you know, it doesn’t, doesn’t, you know, it’s not like a car and you’re like, like a whip around? It’s like, “Okay, here we go….” Um, but yeah, I think I think recognizing that, you know, the traditions we have didn’t have to be is is framed in a way. Because it you’re like, “oh, wow, well, this is this is like a little bit more. Again, hermeneutics, like bringing in yourself to the conversation, you know, the fact that when you start to look at denominations, and the fact that denominations are different, and you’re kind of like, “wait a second, does one denomination kind of have, you know, do they have the ‘one true perspective’ over all the others?” How does that is that even logical, you know, and realizing, realizing that there are things we’re all wrong about, it’s actually extremely freeing, that we might have a view of truth, but we don’t have the same views. Again, truth can be a whole other conversation. And finding respect in that that’s something that’s been, again, a theme for me over the past year is, “oh, this tradition might not be my tradition. Can I respect it? Can I see where they’re valuing truth? You know, and maybe yes, there’s still points, you’re probably going to disagree, but it looking a little bit different. Now, I think, you know, I started with freedom, I probably should have started with the constricting side. 

But the constricting side comes from the fact that I think, when we view it as like, “this is the way it is, this is just how we’ve got to, you know, worship and pray and do this. And that, and this is the way it’s always been.” That’s just, that’s, I don’t even think that’s really reality. Most of the way we practice faith in our traditions, in the 21st century, have developed quite a bit over the last 200 years, and changed dramatically from how they would have done it before. You know, Exhibit A, we use electricity in our services. You know, that’s just a very blatant thing we have usually, a lot of times people have guitars, you wouldn’t have had that even in, you know, the latter part of the 20th century did that become accepted. Because for a long time, you’re like, “you can only you know, use the organ” or what have you. So how things change, that’s the freedom. 

I think what’s restricting is anytime there was–I wish I could remember who said it, because was such a big thing. years ago, I read this quote, that was like, “concepts, create idols.” The whole thing was “concept create idols, only wonder understands.” Which, of course, that’s very, you know, existential in a way, I guess. You know, in terms of like living and pursuing this idea of wonder, and I think that’s freeing, too. But concepts when we try to like, yeah, anytime we try and write something in stone, I think we’re already doing something very, very tricky. You know, what I mean? Like, that’s, that’s inherently limiting, because you say, this can’t be changed, you know, here you go. Here it is. And, and I think that even actually, what’s so fascinating is that makes it that does something in our minds, because again, you know, as you and I think I’ve seen a lot in our, in our studies, the self that you bring, you know, your epistemic location, your experiences is always part of the hermeneutic process of anything you interact with. But when you have something so solid, it almost, we see things in the 21st century as, “Oh, well, it’s, you know, it’s just this way everyone sees it the same way.” I think it actually breaks something in how we know that we like in the process of learning to bring ourselves. I don’t know if I said that very clearly.

It’s like, I think the whole idea of hermeneutics is very freeing, and I think too, but like that, we’re just not. “In my tradition growing up. It’s like, “well read the Bible and you know what it says.” “Read the Bible. That’s the truth.” And I never even for the longest time even thought about the fact that like, I’m reading this with my experience in tow. Sure, or I’m reading this differently. So anyway, I digress. But

Kay
Well, that that is completely All right. I think that that you’re getting at something that’s really fascinating to me here, in the past off between generations, where we, we have a sense of the Church, of governments, of all these different pieces of who we are and the social groupings that we we participate in, we have a sense of them standing in time, we have a sense of them, crossing generations, and they do in some way. But it’s more of a “pass off,” where none of the people who wrote any of our constitutions are still alive, they haven’t been alive for generations, and each subsequent generation has died. And so we each take on that mantle, and that’s true of faith no less. We might have a book that has words that might stay about the same. But that doesn’t mean that we’re not experiencing it anew. That doesn’t mean that that we’re not freshly coming to it, because we necessarily must come to our lives fresh, we come to our lives as babies, we haven’t experienced anything, when we when we come to our faith tradition. And I think that you’re getting at something that’s really powerful about even approaching religion with authenticity in mind. And it’s the notion that we’re thrown into reality that we, we emerge. And it’s now our choice to to do with that what we will. And, and so maybe this is where Sartre can be really useful, because we recognize with him that our lives are really, really radically ours to do with. And even even if we really do believe in God, well, that doesn’t mean that our actions necessarily, you know, have to follow an in a very particular stream. We have the choice to follow, to not follow, whatever it might be. And so there’s a lot that’s happening here, conceptually, but what I’m really curious about is what’s happening in terms of felt experience. You’ve been mentioning a lot about social interactions, and we’ve been kind of dancing around that. So maybe maybe delving a little bit deeper there. You did your undergrad in creative nonfiction. And, you know, many would say that, that that’s the maybe the most authentic of artistic utterances, right? It’s it’s writing things that that you believe are true, in a creative way, right? But has your perception of authenticity changed as you’ve worked through your philosophy degree? Is it different now than it was when you were really just focusing on creative nonfiction?

Kristen
Yeah, yeah. Short answer. Yes, for sure. Sure. Now that it has to do with a lot of various factors, I mean, creative nonfiction, I think, all I think all nonfiction is creative nonfiction, with the guise, but um, anytime you write something, you’re making choices about what to highlight and how to demonstrate it. Now, the thing about undergrad that was so complicated is that, you know, you’re so new to writing and you’re, you know, you’re so devastated if anyone says anything bad about your writing, because you’re like, “but this is my soul!” And it’s actually really not because you’re just at least for me, you’re just beginning to learn, you know, the fear of writing something that you didn’t even know existed inside, you know, your own thoughts, and things like that, and what you discover in writing and how to let something beautiful, like take a different form, because writing you know, itself is so different. Like, you can’t capture the–you shouldn’t try to capture something like music, in writing as if it’s going to be the same. It’s going to change forms, and that’s fine. You can still write about music, but you have to know that you’re not trying to, you know, mimic it or make it look identical. You’re saying something different about it, because it’s got to take this different lens, you know, even movies the way people write about movies. I’m really I said anime earlier. I’m really into Hayao Miyazaki movies right now, I don’t know if you’ve seen any of them. It’s like Spirited Away. Things like that. Actually, there’s one that you were talking about earlier, it’s called The Wind Rises. And his decision is basically he’s he’s trying to work on this airplane, or he’s got–his wife has tuberculosis–and he doesn’t know which thing to choose, like, does he work in this airplane for the war? Or does he stay with his wife? So it was very similar. I was like, “this is the same situation!” The other thing is I was at that point. I would say more—this just has to be a factor. I was more like dogmatically located in my faith probably, like things didn’t bother me because I felt like a possessor of truth, and I had a lot of certainty in that. It was only this year, you know, year two of my degree. And I’ve mentioned this to you before, that I realized I probably came to do this philosophy degree to get an apologetics degree. [laughs] And that’s fine. Even that was probably an authentic desire to be like, “I know, I’m smart. And I know I care about this thing. I just want to be able to prove it to other people who think I’m stupid.” Which of course, there’s some amount of pride there. But I don’t think, again, if your motive is like, “this is the thing that saves.” You know, that’s not really a negative motive. You know what I mean? 

Kay
There’s an authenticity there.

Kristen
Yeah, totally. So, you know, there’s some complications, like, again, there’s a little bit at least—you know—and I’m trying to speak mainly from my own experience, there’s a little bit of like a control freak factor of like, “I can control other people and get them to believe this!” You know, or like, “obviously, they have to see it’s true.” And a lot of that has changed. A lot of that view, I’ve definitely been like, “why would I ever try and, you know, do anything apologetic in nature, per se?” Again, there’s still things that can, there’s still things that can happen that are beautiful in that realm, I think. But, I’m just not as interested in convincing people of things because I think that’s too much of our occupation. I mean, that’s, that’s it. It’s really funny, because a lot of the empiricists, it’s very much their occupation of like, “here’s how everyone previously has got it wrong. And I will now tell you how it’s right.” And here’s the tabula rasa. But (that’s John Locke, for those who don’t know, not, not an exact quote, obviously.) But, um, I think that’s the thing. There’s this this certainty that I think I even probably wanted, even in the fact that it was creative nonfiction, that’s funny that philosophy has had to, like unteach me, you know, like, a reframe for me. And that’s been—I’m very grateful for that experience. So there’s things that also happened between undergrad and grad school that like I am, this is I have to, you know, this affects my experience, but so I’ll acknowledge it, like, I was working with a Christian organization in Ecuador for a long time, through like, three years, and that really changed a lot of my perceptions of the world, really, and myself, you know? And so I think, philosophy has provided a lot more maybe meat to chew on as to like, “why was this such a complicated process?” You know, I think things were just simpler when I was an undergrad, too, I had a more one-dimensional view of things that was like, “Okay, well, it’s gonna go like this, I’ll be married by age 24. And it’ll be fun,” you know, and then when things don’t go that way, you’re kind of like, “Wait a second, Hold on, wait, what? You know…” which is fine. It’s actually that all this is very humbling, and has made so much room for other things I could never have anticipated. And I think that’s beautiful. But that is very frightening, especially I think, in your mid 20s. You’re like, “nothing’s going according to the playbook.” You know? 

Kay
Right. It’s interesting that you’re tracking this change, to my mind, at least, where you had a sense of authenticity before. It seems like a, you know, you felt authentic. You were going to confirm your beliefs, going to back up the things that you really, really believed. And yet, now, that’s been destabilized. And so in some sense, perhaps you feel less authentic, or perhaps you look back on your life and you think that you haven’t been altogether that authentic. But then at the same time, perhaps you’ve recognized what Sartre has to say about authenticity, which is that we’re only authentic when we really recognize our freedom and our freedom to work with what we’ve got. Whereas before, perhaps it was more a sense of prescribed truths, prescribed realities that you had to just kind of buy into. And of course, that’s complicated. And the interplay there is so difficult to figure out and, and so then what I’m wondering is, what does it look like when we’re trying to be authentic in community? That is, can we be authentic in community. And really what differentiates authenticity when we’re, you know, “alone,” from when we’re in a communal space when we’re around others, for that matter, can we ever be alone with our actions? Or are they necessarily part of a community?

Kristen
Oh, man, so much stuff to interact with there. I’ll rewind just a tiny bit in terms of the intro to your question. And yes, like, I, it’s, it’s hard to say, in one respect, I can look back and say, “No, I wasn’t being authentic.” I was so obliged, you know, I was I was like, living again, into this perception of who I was supposed to be. Well, that’s not authentic. But also, I would not have known that—I couldn’t have recognized that. And I really wanted, you know, so many of the things that I would have said I wanted, at least in a sense, again, maybe they were not, maybe I wasn’t informed enough, but I was doing things I would say with “integrity,” you know, what I mean, at least I thought, and maybe it was, I’ve used this, you know, symbol a lot, but maybe it was blinders on maybe it was like, this is something I have to do, “I can’t consider what’s over there, my left or to my right.” Um, and yet, you know, there’s, there’s something at play there in terms of, “could I’ve even done things differently and totally experiences reformed me in different ways, or re-helped me revision or to see or taking the blinders off?” You know, and I’m not sure about that. And this is actually a question that’s quite troubling to me now. Another, another key thing that has occupied a lot of my thinking process is: when I see people do things, and I know they’re doing them with integrity, and I disagree. You know, and again, this, I think the easy example to look at is when someone’s doing something, you know, hateful. I’ll bring this up, because I’m gonna use this in my own project. But it’s, I think it’s pretty relevant to our whole conversation. When they stormed the Capitol in the US, there was a video that came out of people praying, thanking God, that they had ‘won the Capitol,’ or, you know, 

Kay
-Goosebumps. 

Kristen
Yeah, yeah. And I talked to Myron about this actually. It felt so familiar, the prayer that they were praying. And I was like, “they really mean this.” You know what I mean? They’re not doing this- they’re not doing this just to show off, like, they are really believing this. And I’m like, “this is- how do you reconcile this thing that I’ve done in so many similar ways?” “Where have I been wrong?” You know, like, and how do you even know, how do you start to assess that? That’s a very, I mean, for me, this is troubling. You know, it’s, it’s like, how can something be done with a motive that I, I recognize, I know, that I’ve had in a similar way, and yet I disagree with it, you know, so fundamentally? I mean, that’s, I don’t know if I can answer that question. You know, for myself, even. But it’s been ongoing in my mind. 

So in terms of social, the social element, you know, and what we do authentically in, in relation, and then on our own, socially, I think there’s, I mean—again, psychology comes into play—there’s so many factors in terms of, you know, when you need other people to live and an approval from other people, something I’ve been learning a tiny bit about is like attachment style, and things like that, and how, you know, if you’re just confident around other people and not worried about like, losing, you know, social relationships, you might comport yourself in a different way than if you’re anxiously attached or you’re scared, you know, you’re going to say something and lose all your friends. And, and I, and I think a lot of those factors influences. I mean, you know, under the level of awareness, and that’s something, you know, I think, I—and I think part of this actually comes from being a woman and different things that are internalized is like, always trying to impress people not trying to seem too pushy or bossy, you know, words that are applied in certain contexts, especially work, you know, where I’m like, “Oh, I want to do great, but I don’t want to be seen, like, you know, I’m being x way.” A lot of motivators that come into play, again, in different contexts. So socially, I do think we should still aspire to I think this, I think we’re kind of hitting on the same notion of authenticity, again, in terms of Being in terms of wanting to be not so coerced into acting a certain way by the immediate factors around us because maybe this—dare I say—internal compass that is more is the louder or voice –I’m mixing metaphors. Now in terms of the self by yourself. It’s so funny. Yeah, I wonder how much of what we do is just for ourselves or by ourselves, and especially within, you know, a context of believing in God because, you know, I, and this is almost reflex of you know, I’m on a walk or something, and I see the mountains, which are so beautiful. I’m like, “Oh, God, thank you for those mountains, those are beautiful. I’m like, this is awesome.” You know, and both in the maybe the good and the bad. You know, like, there are times where things are hard. And I’m like, I think, again, maybe the impulse is still just a prayer of like, “God, you know, I don’t really understand. And this is odd.”

Kay
It’s so interesting that even in these moments when you feel by yourself, or when we would normally say, “well, Kristen is by herself right now,” you’re, you’re still measuring authenticity in terms of this, this external being this God. And that’s really interesting. And I think that many of us can probably, for being honest with should probably relate to that, that often, even even when we are, you know, experiencing, say, the dark night of our soul, when we are alone, and and really do feel alone. There’s something about that, that that demands crying out, and why does one cry out except to try to communicate with something else? It seems like we’re inescapably social. And also, inescapably trying to be authentic. And that’s, that’s so difficult to, to hold at once. And, and so I think that, you know, perhaps a problem with the, you know, the striving for authenticity, is just that, that that release of understanding the social factors at play. And like you were talking about with, with the folks who stormed the Capitol, where–I can at least speak for myself, and I’m sure most of our listeners would probably agree that there are some moral wrong happening there. And that these folks are whether they’re being authentic or not doing something that is, to some extent, a moral evil. And yet, as you’re saying, there’s an authenticity, but we’re judging them as moral agents, we’re judging them in community, we’re judging them as other beings caught with other beings. And so I guess I’m curious what you do. You’ve been touching on faith a lot. And I’ve been kind of, you know, moving there. And what we’ll get back to that in a second. But when we make mistakes, and I’m not talking about the rioters at this point, they seem to be doing this very intentionally. When you actually make a mistake, this thing that we call a mistake, do you experience that is inauthenticity or as something else?

Kristen
I think I want to experience it as an authenticity. I’m probably already doing something. Yeah, I’m already doing something a little bit curious. Because I think in a more brave sense, I probably should acknowledge an action I have done as just wrong. And then “I did it” taking the responsibility there, which I think maybe is a better, you know, it waited here to Sartre’s view of freedom, you know, saying both I had the freedom for good and for bad. And in this instance, I did something bad, as opposed to what essentially might be boiling down to like an excuse of, “Oh, well, I wouldn’t, you know, I was underslept, I’m sorry, or I was running late.” And you know, all the different things. Or “sorry, I was distracted. And I just said that out of you know, being in a hurry.” You know, there’s so many things. I’m very good at making excuses.

Kay
You’re a creative writer, very creative, um, when when you feel like you have betrayed your moral sensibilities. So let’s take this you know, very, particularly to your experience, when you feel like perhaps you’ve sinned against God. Does that feel like a rupture in existence and you’re being we’ve been talking about being? Does it feel like you have actually committed some sort of offense against Being? Or is it something different than that? Do you actually feel more authentic for it?

Kristen
Hmm. Wow, this is so fascinating. I’ll be thinking about this for so long. I myself have been trained to think of it as something that is, again, within this moral framework of “Oh, I did something wrong.” And then, you know, very rapidly attempting to remedy that like, praying for forgiveness being like, “Okay, get out of here” and all this, you know, moving on. I think that process is inauthentic because it doesn’t- again, I use the word weight earlier doesn’t give proper weight to reality. And I, if you think about that, in terms of, I mean, again, I’m bringing it back into context of social relationships. But if your friend did something against you, and then they’re like, “oh, okay, sorry, can you just forgive me?” “Okay, thanks.” Right? You know, you’re like, Um, “hello?” You know, like, it’s, it actually speaks against there being because when you’re not willing to acknowledge it as who a part of who you currently are, then First of all, you’re likely to do something similar in the future. And because you’re not addressing again, it’s kind of this what’s the source, source of the self, the source of your being? I think that’s very different from, you know, just mere behavior. And so again, this is where I do think the concept of loving the right things is quite compelling. Because if you also hurt something you love, or you do something, you recognize, and it’s, again, not aligned with that, I think it’s a much more personal process of kind of recognizing that and saying, “This is- why, you know, why did I do this?” Maybe it was acting out of weakness, and there’s still something true about me in that weakness. You know, so again, it’s, it’s very humbling. And I think maybe that’s, again, I just emphasize, we shouldn’t rush to negate these negative things, I think it’s a lot more of understanding why they are part of our being, why they’re a part of ourselves currently. And that that can change but there’s, it means something, you know, so a rupture, maybe not so much, as much as it’s complicated inside, you know, I think there’s always, you know, the “Know thyself” kind of concept. It’s actually very hard to do. Even in introducing oneself at the beginning of a podcast.

Kay
Absolutely, yeah. Knowing ourselves is so complicated, and, and yet we have expectations for others, that they, when they act, that they are acting fully from themselves. It’s really interesting, that the standards that we bring for ourselves in our supposed authenticity, the excuses that we make for ourselves. And yet the cold light of reason that we kind of apply to other people, “you’re being inauthentic, you’re being fake.” Whereas for yourself, when you commit the same action, you see it as a just a kind of a step off the path or, or stepping, you know, away from who you normally are. And I do want to move us, you know, not not focus too much on kind of sin language. And, and not so much on the question of, you know, “what’s wrong in an absolute sense?” Because that’s, that’s pretty tough to actually nail down. I don’t think this podcast is trying to figure that out. But what I’m curious a final question is, what do you see as the role of a person of faith in being authentic? And is that different from another person? Or is that in fact, the same burden? Do we all as humans have the same burden of authenticity? Or is it rather different when we are subscribing to a particular faith tradition?

Kristen
Yeah, I think I’ll frame it a little bit. If you’d asked me this an undergrad, I would have said, “Oh, yeah, you know, as people faith, we’ve got to be the most authentic, the most loving,” You know, and that just would have been that, yeah, the impulse. And I think that involves a little bit of othering, you know, in terms of, “Oh, well, these people don’t have access, you know, whether it be just to knowledge of the truth from the Bible, or even the Spirit.” And and I think that’s a little bit different. Because I, from my view, now, just because I see, I think, I think I would have been limiting how God can work in the world there. Again, that’s a whole other conversation on, well, many things coming from that. But I think I would have seen historically would have seen, “oh, God works exclusively within the context of faith communities, or, you know, that’s the only people who want it.” So, you know, whatever. But, um, I think that’s a little bit limiting on God’s power too. So in terms of now and being authentic. Yeah, I think, you know, if anything, and maybe this is just a small piece of being authentic, is really recognizing. Yeah, that I think going back to the idea of thrownness, you know, how it’s very much fortunate that many people if they think, you know, that this is the -If we’re following God, and that, and we’ve been shown this is true, I mean, that has to be a gift, you know, in terms of you, once you start taking pride, like “we’ve got this knowledge.” I just think that’s a little bit. I think that’s a little bit off the point, you know what I mean? And also then recognizing what we’ve been taught in terms of being good, and how that all still affects us. You know, I think just being honest about that. I think it’s helpful for me in terms of being authentic and recognizing that it is just complicated. 

I get I’m not really helping summarize things here. But I yeah, I think there’s something important in saying, “okay, all these factors come into my life. I didn’t have to be born in this time, you know, I didn’t have to be necessarily lose faith, and I am and what does that mean?” And “is it true? “Then I want to follow it truly” you know, I want to, I don’t want to, for me, right now. It’s I don’t want to be denying certain things. I don’t want to have blinders on. Because I feel compelled to do so. You know, I do think it’s like acknowledging the things that are complicated, which is what’s happening, I think, in this conversation, acknowledging it’s probably not as cut and dry as maybe we thought in our younger years. And that’s okay. And I think, again, I think in the context of community, providing space for that, and love for for that in the differences of people’s paths, you know, we’re not all we’re just not all gonna align on stuff from the get-go. That’s very clear. Different blinders, different lives, can we make room for people in those differences? How does that look? I think that’s, I think that’s a newer question within faith context. So yeah.

Kay
Awesome. Well, Kristen, thank you so much for joining us in the shift podcast. It’s great to speak with you. Oh,

Kristen
Man, a pleasure to be here.

Kay
Well, now I am here with Sophia, having just finished this conversation with Kristin, and I’m wondering if we can return to an opening question. For you, Sophia, what is your authentic self? Who are you?

Sophia
How long do we have? [laughs] I think that question has been the question of all time and philosophy and in spiritual communities of “what is that authentic self or that capital ‘S’ self?” I know that Richard Rohr and many other spiritual teachers reflect on that. For me, I’ve been on a bit of a journey over the last 10 or 15 years, of I grew up with a name that had lots of associations with it. It was Mary Kay. So a name that many people would say, “do you drive a pink Cadillac?” Or are you just lots of connotations that went with that name. And in 2008, I went through a journey of connecting in with Divine Wisdom, or Sophia, and had a bit of a mystical experience. And as I journeyed with learning about the qualities that are associated with the name, and the entity and all the myths and stories about “Sophia,” what I heard was stories that felt more true to me than the name that I had lived with for nearly 40 years, or just past 40 years. And so as I look to what is the true self for my self, it’s “how do I live more fully in the qualities of Sophia, and live into this name that I’ve chosen for myself?” And that really, I say, chose me, in many ways. And so I look to “where do I express wisdom?” “Where do I express grounded connection to the earth, yet a more cosmic perspective?” “How do I embody compassion?” –Since many of the stories about Divine Wisdom are about bringing compassion and care to the earth. And so on the days when I’m able to lean into those qualities, I’m living more true to what I believe to be my true self, than on the days when I might connect to older parts of myself that might react or be in a certain way of being. So, that’s what for me feels like authenticity, is finding those qualities that feel most true to my soul’s calling and living each day reminding myself of those.

Kay
Wow, that’s beautiful.

Sophia
And how about for you?

Kay
Yes, I really connect with and resonate with what you’ve said about the day where you asked yourself, “Am I connecting with Sophia?” In the in the day was today, the day that did this? I, myself have relatively recently started the the journey of transitioning. And, I’ve been very annoyed with the number of people who have told me, “wow, you you’ve found your authentic self, I’m so proud of you.” Which I- it’s very kind of them to say that, but I don’t feel any more authentic. I don’t feel any more. Like I just wake up in the morning and I’m just suddenly just a happy woman. No, instead, it’s that daily slog. The journey of authenticity isn’t one in which we make a single choice–at least in my experience–that then, is always and forever the authentic choice that was made and we are now authentic, but rather it’s a daily unfolding, a moment by moment unfolding even. And for me, that this you know, my gender journey has has been one I think of greater authenticity or ever increasing authenticity, perhaps, but not one in which suddenly I have flipped a switch, gone from inauthentic to authentic. And I think that hopefully that points to something about what authenticity is, something about it being a collection of moments. Perhaps it points to what we are–I don’t know.

Sophia/
That rings really true for me. That it’s like that moment by moment congruency of aligning ourself with the idea of who we know ourselves to be. And being true to what it is for today. And constantly updating that and discerning that and having enough time and spaciousness in our life, to be able to tap into that self awareness, so that we might ‘tune in.’ And if today, it’s something very different than yesterday, of living that truth. And if that means going and renegotiating relationships or discerning different things, allowing ourselves to drop into that each and every day. So yeah, that speaks to me.

Kay
Excellent. Now, this brings up a further question for me, you’re a minister. And you’ve just articulated a moment by moment, unfolding of truth, daily truth. What do you do in religious communities? You in particular–how do you approach in your, your walk in religion–this authentic journey? Do you find that this community of people that it’s more challenging to be authentic than it is in this kind of idealized Sartrean sense of ‘the self’ just being authentic?

Sophia
I think it’s difficult. I think, one, it’s difficult to really know, in all of the different relationships, who that true authentic self is. And once life gets going, and community starts happening, and you’re serving a ministry, to make sure you take the time to come back and reconnect with that. I know I’m my best self, when I’m most playful, whether it’s with children or adults. And I know when I get in my serious business mode, which is an old part of me, and my identity, that’s not true to who I am today. And that takes away from the best of me, because what I believe is that as I’m able to bring the best of me into community, I thrive, and so does the community. But there’s lots of pressures to conform to certain norms, and to be true to your word. So if you’ve said something… and sometimes it gets messy. And sometimes people’s worst selves show up in community. And so how do we in community call people in? Call people to that higher idea of their true selves and give space for authentic, true selves to interact with each other, even if there is conflict, even if there is disagreements, but allowing the space for people to be true, to that deeper, authentic self.

Kay
There’s something to that, that strikes of mysticism, which makes sense being you as a person who is so mystically inclined, so tapped into that journey. And what I’m struck by is the inward journey that that marks even as you’re describing the outward journey, the  turning to the other, to community. It’s also somehow dwelling into the self, there’s somehow an element of this, that–it’s hard to put to words. But there’s an element here of extending yourself even though it doesn’t always feel authentic, and in the sense that Sartre thinks it somehow connects with what we are, maybe as humans, maybe as believers, whatever, we might choose to label that. I’m just very impressed with your particular approach to this as a religious leader.

Sophia
And it’s not every day. It’s a moment by moment, coming back to practicing the presence, making sure that I’m doing the practices that are important to me, to be tuning into that. And then also inviting people into that. And so that’s what I’d like to do with our listeners here is to invite them into that day by day practice, in their morning, waking hours of really tuning into that deeper part of themselves through a few breaths as they are awakening and maybe coming up with like we invited them in the eulogy is coming up with a few of those qualitative words:

What’s the quality today of your true self that you want to make sure expresses in what you do and who you are during that day. And just making that a daily reminder of “tune in.” “Express.” And then maybe in the evening doing a bit of journaling, or a review of “how did that quality express?” What opportunities arose for me to express if, let’s say it’s forgiveness that day? What opportunities arose to express that quality? And that’s a way they can start to begin to explore, “who is my true self?” “What are the qualities of that true self?” “And how might I more aligned my life to living in that way?” 

And so friends, we hope that this has been a helpful practice of inviting you in, into yourself and into community. And so we would love for you to engage with us through Instagram, through Twitter, through Facebook as we engage with the topic of authenticity. So make sure you keep checking back to shiftpodcast.ca for new episodes, because they’ll be coming. Thanks for joining Shift Podcast.

Death is a complicated topic. We aren’t able to have a conversation with anyone who’s really died, so it is the one experience that remains a mystery — a journey we must each travel on our own.

Content warning: of course Death is a sensitive topic for many of us, for many reasons, but we also want to alert you that we include suicide in our conversation. If you’d prefer to skip that portion, it’s from 19:05 to 23:50.

Episode 001

Content warning: The following transcript includes a conversation about suicide.

Opener  

The hushed tones whispered about a thing I knew already, but couldn’t comprehend. It was serious, somber, sad. But all of that was over my head. Literally. My grandfather was in a coffin I had to be lifted up to see. And watching from beside, I could tell, death causes tears. I watched happen time after time as people looked in. It was a remarkable transformation, sometimes loud sobs with crumpled faces, sometimes silent weeping. For everyone it seemed. But me. I wonder now if it occurred to me that I should cry or to question why I didn’t. I bet I was the kind of kid who’d think about stuff like that. If asked, I would have been able to answer that I was four, but I’m not sure I could have defined what a year was. And here I was shuffled into a sea of swirling skirts and suit pants, to face the starkest reality of life: it ends. 

Maybe this is why I never had what people call “the invincibility of youth” because I knew mortality. It happens to people doing everything to prepare for a long life, surrounded by all of the things they have sacrificed and worked immensely hard for. In the middle of a long run the very heart attack they were trying to fend off can claim them.

I was too young for “this isn’t how it’s supposed to be.” It just became part of my “this is.” And in retrospect, it seems like that was good preparation.

Segue

Sophia: What we see and experience as children can sometimes guide how we hold death and all our years to come.

I’m so honored to have our Shift podcast engage with the topic of death. It’s such an important conversation during this pandemic time, and at the stage that many of our listeners are at in their lives, their faith, and spiritual journeys: a stage of questioning, wondering, deconstructing and reconstructing what they know, and yet no longer know about death, life, God and humanity.

I’m intrigued that by engaging with what’s possible in death, we might open up to what is possible in life. Let’s see, friends listen along while Brad and Hilde dive deep into our death, denying culture, explore dignity and choice in death. Breathe in, as they explore suicide, and mental health, and eulogies. And in conversations that inform how we live and support how we die. That’s what this podcast is all about. Exploring who we are, and who we choose to be, and what we choose to believe, and the rich conversations of our lives, that open our minds and our hearts to new perspectives, and new ways of relating. Welcome to Shift.

Conversation

Brad: I thought it would be a really good addition to this podcast to interview somebody who has done extensive amounts of research and, is pondering the whole concept of death and our thinking around it and our culture’s awareness. And so we’re grateful to have Hilde with us here today. Hilde, why don’t you introduce yourself?

Hilde: Thanks, Brad. My name is Hilde a different name for most people.

My mother’s name was Margaret Jean. My grandmother’s name was Mary. my paternal grandparents were Henrietta and Austin. And my father’s name was Joseph Guy.

So I’m a person who loves to be out in nature. I love to walk in trees and listen to trees. I spend as much time as possible in bare feet, even outside, I’m a person of silence. I’m also known to talk a lot. So my kids always thought that that was just an oxymoron, that I like silence.

I’m also just coming out of or going into retirement from being a United Church Minister for the last 23 years.

And before that, my focus was with children. And my focus was and university on aging and death and dying.

Brad: So this interest goes back a long way.

Hilde: A long way.

Brad: And in preparation for this, you drafted a document for us to sort of wrestle with and and that document ended up being about 20 pages long. And it struck me that that is still just scratching the surface on this.  

Hilde: It is.

Brad: And so this conversation that we’re having is just scratching the surface of the surface that’s being scratched. So it’s interesting to me: where have you felt this kind of this kind of pull to to ponder death and to help people through it? Where did that kind of start for you? Do you have a clear sense of that? 

Hilde: I do. I believe it came from my connection with animals. I grew up having cats. And I remember when the one cat ran away, and so everyone said, “well, they must have been killed.” And so that was tragic to me. And well, why would that happen? And I was probably seven or eight. And then I remember clearly when scamp died. Got sick, actually. And then we had to take her to the vet. And my mother made me decide what to do. And so I asked, I asked her, I asked her if she was ready to die, and clear as I can hear it now. I got the message that “hold me, and let me die.” And so then I went on a questioning of other people. So, “how do you want to die?” And here I am this 10 year old.  

Brad: [laughs] I was gonna say, What age was that? 

Hilde: About 10. Or 11. You know, “how do you want to die?” Because I had just experienced not too long ago holding my cat. And watching her die. And loving her immensely. And knowing that something that was part of her was still part of me. I didn’t get a lot of good reception, especially from people that I thought were really old. They were probably 40. But they didn’t want to talk about that. And that that was a problem. Because if it was so easy just to decide, or let me decide that a cat was going to die, then why wouldn’t people talk about it? 

Brad: Right. Right. And so that would prompt your curiosity, even more like you’re wrestling with: “Why is it hard for people to talk about that?” And so that’s a very early awareness of that. Yeah. One of the things that, that you’ve pointed out, and we’ve had conversations around this, too, is that death is taboo. We don’t like to talk about it. And that’s kind of in this too. That people want to protect themselves from that kind of awareness, or just, it doesn’t feel like ever quite the right time to talk about it. How have you seen that sort of show up? And then how do you kind of intervene with that? 

Hilde: We are certainly a death denying culture. We want it to go away. “It’s not going to happen to me.” We talk about our teenagers or youth as being invincible, and they never think about it. But it’s not until I’m sitting across from a family often, and someone has died, that I hear “well, we’ve never talked about this. We’ve never done this before. We’re glad you’re here. You’re the expert.” And so I say Well, have you did you not talk about this with your mom knowing she was very sick with cancer? And she was dying? No, no, no, she didn’t want to talk about it. Or on the other hand, there’d be “well, she wanted to talk about it. But we didn’t know how.” So it… I’m not sure if we’re afraid of pain. …People don’t seem to be afraid to be dead. They seem more afraid of the dying part. And in my experience, and the things I’ve done with families, we don’t have to be afraid there is so much that we can do to make that whole experience and that journey. Even lovely. Even lovely.

Brad: Yeah, so the taboo that that we’re talking about shows up in the euphemisms that we use, there was a narrow portion of my life where I watched the language of our culture change from “passed away,” to “passed on” to simply “passed.” And it’s like we’re just trying to soften all of this so that it doesn’t feel real to us. And that has just huge implications for how prepared we are for any of this to affect us personally.

Hilde: It doesn’t. It’s also traumatic for members of our population and our children, especially when we start using the word “lost.” Because “we lost grandma.” Well, so what we lost the cat yesterday and we found the cat go find grandma. 

Yeah, no, or, you know, “I’m sorry to hear about your loss.” “Well, I didn’t lose anything.” “Well, you know, didn’t grandma just die?” “Oh, well, we know where she is. She’s in the you know, and so kids have the good language around it, right? Unless they’re given the euphemisms, then they get scared and they don’t understand. Right?

Brad: And that that concept of lost is something that we’ve also talked about in reference to how we frame the entire thing. If somebody beats cancer, for example, is this big triumph, right? They won, they’ve come out victorious. But if they die from cancer, then the flipside is that they lost, they succumbed. It’s a tragic defeat. And that doesn’t strike me as hopeful for how to understand death. 

Hilde: One of the push backs is our medical system, because again, “lost, lost… they’ve lost the battle, they, they weren’t good enough doctors, they weren’t good enough, nurses giving care because they lost.” So there’s that competition there to keep us alive. And I like being alive. But it’s not a competition. And we’re running into those conversations all the time now with “how long do we really want to live?” “What do I want to be like, when I’ve lived my 100 years?” You know, if I’m still walking in being able to talk to people, and you know, pet the dog, that’s great. But if I’ve been 20 years lying there, barely knowing that people around me or if I do, I can’t say anything. That’s a whole different thing. And so we have that, with our medical assistance in dying, the whole conversation about what does it mean to die? And is that possible?

Brad: Yeah, there’s a whole new emphasis on on dignity and understanding what what the end of life looks like when we look at it through the lens of dignity. How do you perceive that and the changes that are happening in our culture right now? 

Hilde: I’ve seen lots of changes, even just in the last 20 years about how we have respect for people who are dying, how we accompany them, and not leave them just to die. I’ve probably been in over 700 places where people have either just died or dying. That’s a lot of death I’ve seen. And for me, one of the most privileged places is in that hospital room or bedroom, where someone’s dying, and the family has called me. And they have no idea what to do. But they’re willing to just be gentle with themselves and take a lead, and listen and talk and ask the person. If they’re a person that always liked to be hugged, then chances are they’d love you to hold their hand hold their hand. If they’re not saying anything, they can probably hear you. Because that’s the last sense that leaves so tell them a story. What did you see when you were coming here? Who was playing in the puddles? And you no, was there a cat in a window? tell those stories because they’re still connected with what they hear. So that gentleness and that privilege, and that honoring and dignity, as you said, of being present and helping someone die? 

Brad: Yeah, that’s, that’s powerful. You’ve mentioned children and their perspectives on this. When I turned 30, I had a conversation with my doctor. And he said, You’re 30 now right? And I agreed, “yeah, that, you know” –he can see my medical record. So he knows that, you know, it was a question more for my sake than his obviously– and he said, “so when you hit 30 you become aware of mortality in a completely different way. It feels there.  It’s like real, it’s approaching–it’s not imminent. It doesn’t feel imminent yet. It’s not like it’s happening tomorrow. But this is a natural change that happens at age 30. I was just like, “Yeah, he’s read my mail. Like he’s right on, this is where I am! I have this fresh new awareness that’s just kind of emerging from somewhere.” And I just suddenly thought, like, Where else would I have encountered this thought? Where else would I have come across this awareness because we’re not so willing to talk about this reality of our awareness of mortality even, and the inevitability of mortality. And so it made me think there are ways that we should be able to talk about this, about death with every age group. And I wonder if you could just kind of run through a few perspective-sharing strategies for how to how to broach this topic at age appropriate levels, maybe through the decades  

Hilde: Sure. Kids ask the best questions. Usually around five to eight is where you’ll get the questions “if grandma dies.” And the questions will be really concrete because that’s What those people are thinking they’re concrete. So the the book that’s a great book is won’t grandma need her socks? So the picture or the best scene they set up is, and there are still are people that have caskets. So you can still see, we’ve come to view a body. But it was back in the decades where you did that regularly. So they wonder, “did grandma have her socks on? Because she always had cold feet.” So that was the question. And so I don’t know what the answer was, at the time. But that’s the kinds of questions you get. And, you know, how will they… how will they get to heaven? If that’s part of your belief system. If that’s where you think they’re going. How did they get there? Because right now, they’re just very, very still. 

Brad: Right.

Hilde: So in those things we talk about, I talk about things like letters when we did get letters, and we still get mail. So when you get a piece of mail, what do you do? You open it up, and often throw out the envelope and read the letter. So you know, kids understand, you don’t need that envelope, but that’s the body, you know, and what’s inside–the best part of the person? That’s what we hold on to. And we can’t put it in a box, and we can’t hold its hand. And that’s sad. But we can remember the very essence of what that person did, how they make us laugh. What we did together, so that concrete thinking, that’s where under-tens usually are.

When you move into 10, 11, 12 to, often to 20. It’s very similar, you want to fix everything, right. And so you want to fix the death, you want the doctors to stop the person from dying. So that’s often where people try to run away from the death, they want it not to happen, and they feel like they’ve done something wrong. For a 14-15 year old, to hear about the death of someone: they will blame themselves. And it’s really key that we make sure that you didn’t do anything wrong, they will remember the last thing they said to that person. And if it wasn’t a nice thing, then it’s their fault that they’ve died. So that’s a place that you really have to watch their hearts and to really be open about the scientific stuff, because that age group is really interested in that. So if it was the failure of the lungs, then you talk about that, and it becomes a body and science conversation. But then you always move it over to “the best part of the person is still with us.” We still have their laughter we still can remember these things. Mostly, for kids, I’ll or give them something to hold on to, to remember grandpa in their hands. So “put it beside your toothbrush. And every time you brush your teeth, you’ll think or grandpa and remember the smile.” So that yeah, that emotional piece between our 12 and 20 year olds. That’s where they are. They need the conversations about, their feelings more than anything else.

Brad: Right. And that age group too–they’re just starting to learn abstract thought. 

Hilde: Yes.

Brad: So that kind of interacts with that too. There’s an awareness that goes beyond just, you know, the tangible and the concrete. 

Content Warning: Suicide

Hilde: Yeah. So that that is very important piece to remember that they can do that kind of piece. Once you’re in your 20s, usually, you’re still feeling invincible. So death is not ever going to happen to you. So when it does, it’s, very tragic. And it’s very, I would say, soul shaking. And these are these are folks that need a lot of attention as well. That’s a time, unfortunately, when we run across a lot of suicide, when people are struggling with who they are, and feeling good about themselves. So those are other conversations that I think are really important to have, even in our early teens, so that we can help ourselves to understand our worth, and that we always have something that we can look forward to and nothing means that you are not worth being alive. 

Brad: I appreciate you bringing that up. One of the things that I’ve seen around that is even more delicacy. Like “if I ask a question about somebody’s mental health or about somebody suicidal ideation, might that put that idea in their head? Might that encourage them to go through with that?” And the research is saying no. And rather be forthright about that and just just ask the question. 

Hilde: That’s really important. Brad asking those questions, even if you just a little bit wonder, “have they thought about it?” Ask the question. “So that question made me think about needing to ask you, are you going to kill yourself?” “Are you at the end of your rope?” “Do you Have a plan?” Sometimes people say, “Yeah, I just want to be off this world.” “Well, what’s your plan?” “Oh, I don’t know, I don’t know the plan.” Then likely we don’t have to worry about them. But if they have a plan: “yes, I’m driving the car off the bridge.” “What bridge?” “When are you going to?” I’ve had some experience working with suicide in other communities. So we would teach businesses and schools to talk about suicide and those questions that you need to ask. And I always say, so “before you do it, would you call me so I can say goodbye?” Because that might be the last thing they think about. before they’re going to do it. “Well, I’d have to call Hilde. And say goodbye. Well, that means she must miss me, or she will. So maybe it’s not worth it. And I’ll just call her and talk.”

And I have… I have in my life had someone who did not complete suicide, because they had to call me and I wasn’t home. And they had to wait. And then life got different. So, I don’t even remember that young person’s name. But I remember the look on their face when they said, “thanks that you made me call you. But you weren’t home. How dare you?” I was not home. Yeah. But yeah. There’s lots we can learn about walking with people, through our mental illness through life being just too tough.

And one of those things is to be very clear about talking about death. Death is the end. It’s final. It’s not a solution to anything. And we’re trying to fix things often, if suicide seems the right thing to do. It doesn’t fix anything. And isn’t nice to anybody. And it’s not a selfish act. But it does hurt people. And it doesn’t take a burden off anybody. So all those things to be a live conversation often is good for us to do.

Brad: Thank you. Yeah, that’s, those are important things. I’ve heard suicide framed, like the reason you shouldn’t is because it’s such a selfish act. And the way that is framed is so problematic to me, 

Hilde: That’s more of a burden on the person than anything.

Brad: And there’s also this way to bypass people and just tell them, they should be happy because they, they can take another breath, right. And that’s just like, if they’re at this stage, that’s not helpful either. 

Hilde: The other piece about suicide is the language around it. I have learned having talked to a number of people who’s have a member completed suicide, we don’t commit suicide. That’s an old word. It used to be against the law. So you were committing an unlawful act, if you committed suicide, so the language is now “completed, completed suicide or death by suicide. Or took their own life.” So it’s very clear, it’s same with the words about death and dying, it’s clear what’s happening. And it’s not a crime, you’ve done nothing wrong. Or the person that has attempted wasn’t doing anything wrong, they were reaching out, and we just weren’t listening.

Brad: That’s a good corrective. And then as we progress through the ages into into 30, and beyond, there are all of these things kind of compound and, and grow. But what would you say to somebody in their 30s or 40s, around this topic? Now, some of this, as we’ve already talked about, is helpful because there might be kids involved, that, that having that kind of perspective would be helpful for the kids, but but a 30, or 40 year old has a different relationship with all of this.

Hilde: Sure. First, I’d ask the question, if they’ve made a plan for their life. Okay. You know, what do you want to be when you grow up? Yeah, what do you want to be doing in the last 10 years before you retire? And I’ll start there, because that gets someone thinking about living. And then we ask the question, “so when you’ve had a really good life, and you’ve had but success and everything you’ve done, you’ve retired, well, how do you want to die? What do you want to be doing in your last month of your life? If it’s sudden death?” We can’t make those choices, right?  But hopefully we live long enough that we can have that choice. “What do I want to do for the last month, if I know that I’m about to die?” Those are good things to think about. And I can make choices about those things. When someone is given a last date, “you’ve got three months or or two months,” or whatever it is. We’ve got lots of things that we can think about and make choices about instead of being powerless, and having control taken away. We give that control back to people. When we talk about: “how do you want to die?” Because there are choices can be that can be made. Like, “Are you someone who, on your last day wants the curtains open and the sun coming in your room? Do you want to hear the kids playing in the playground and the birds? Or do you want the curtains drawn and there’s three candles there and it’s dark?” That’s a decision that’s very, very different. And if I don’t know that, then I probably will do the wrong thing, because I’m going to do what I would like, which would be to having the curtains open and the sun coming in. Right? But that might not be right for you. So I have to ask those questions. Because that puts that power back into someone’s hands into their hearts. And they can then think about how I want to do this.

Brad: There’s a magic to that — giving somebody back volition, even in this. I’ve heard this kind of exercise done in, in various formats in corporate boardrooms, or, you know, the business world, the church world where people are presented with this. “So what do you want your epitaph to say?” “How do you want to frame your life?” And that’s the follow up, right? So if you know what you want people to say about you when you’re gone–how are you going to make the decisions to make that true? And I think that’s such a meaningful exercise. Because we’re so uncomfortable with even processing the concept of death, we don’t do that enough. I think we live in the tyranny of the urgent and all of the distractions and the things that fill our attention. And we don’t think about how to be intentional and mindful about the decisions that we can make. And it ends up feeling more and more powerless. But if we would choose the other way, then we recognize our volition and, and that enhances our understanding of the value of life and living. Right? So if somebody was going to contemplate that, like, “I’m this age, and I need to make some choices about where I’m going to put my attention and energy.” How would you help them from here? In a talking conversation that’s sort of disembodied to people.

Hilde: [laughs]

Brad: How would you help people guide themselves through that?

Hilde: I think what was key is what you’ve just said: “Look at what you’d want to say in your obituary? What do you want your friends to remember you by?” And then get some help make it a conversation with friends. So this is what I want my obit to say. When I screw up would you help remind me that I’m not going to get there if I keep acting like this. Wow. So let’s, you know, make a team that’s going to help you we had teams for all sorts of things, winning basketball games, and you know, playing golf, but a team to live and help me live better. That’s a pretty cool team. That is a great and then I get to help other people too. And I’ve been given permission to say, Whoa, you know, “Sarah, if you want this on your, you know, me to read this tribute, I can’t, if you, you know, if you keep doing that, you know, or I thought you want it to be a great artist, right? You’ve given that up. I can’t read this when you die if you don’t finish, you know, that painting or go back to school or, or something. Or, you know, you want it to be remembered in this way. I don’t see that anywhere in your life.” So you told me I could remind you that that’s what you wanted. So how can I get you back there?  

Brad: It’s so funny as you’re sharing that, because I realized that the way that I’m even framing that is like it’s my secret. How I want to be remembered is kind of my secret. And then I hope it shows up by magic. Not gonna happen. No, that’s right. And to think about that in a in a team environment to bring people alongside who understand that bigger purpose in your own life 

Hilde: Meet every year at the same pub, go over your your obit and see if you’re living into it. Wow. And make sure that the people you love and care for are doing the same thing. What a great reason to meet Yeah, right. You know, to say, “this is how I want to live and help me and I messed up here” or “Wow, I’m really going strong. How can I help you?”

Brad: Yeah, that’s that’s great perspective. That’s amazing! One of the things that I’ve considered in pondering this topic, there’s a lot of meaninglessness around death and suffering and grieving. And I think we tend to try and put meanings on things that don’t necessarily belong there. But one of the things that does give shape and meaning to life is that it ends. And this is kind of where you’re nudging with this, right, like, there, there’s a timeframe that we have, and we don’t even know what the timeframe is. But we know that we have a timeframe. And so does that resonate with you that that part of the meaning of life is that it comes to an end? And how does that get expressed? 

Hilde: That’s a really good question. I’m not sure I have right now any answers for that. Except about what we’ve talked about. To be present to that knowledge that I’m going to die. So what does that mean for today? Because I might only have today. So if I’ve been planning to write that letter, or make that phone call, today, maybe should be the day. So if it can stir us to do those kinds of things, as I was doing some reading, in preparation for this, one of the books that I was reading said, Every morning when you get up, and it was happened to be a guy with a beard. So when you’re trimming your beard, remind yourself, you’re going to die. I thought, whoa, that’s a little different.

Brad: Yeah. [laughs] That’s why I don’t shave so much.

Hilde: When do I remind myself that I’m going to die? You know, and let’s do I have to change anything today? Or do I put something in my my timer for Friday that I need to get to? Because I, you know, I don’t know that we do that we want to live well. We also can die Well, I believe, but the living well is the first piece. So how do I remind myself and knowing that someday Yeah, I will be dead. That might help.

Brad: Yeah. You are in the process. You’ve mentioned this already, but you’re in a career transition. You’re about to retire from an extended stint as a minister. And you have an interesting trajectory that you’ve chosen–or that’s chosen you, I’m not sure exactly how you would frame that for that for this–but you are an accredited end of life doula. Can you explain what that is? 

Hilde: Sure. End of Life doula or death doula. The name comes from the piece of doula which birth doula is paired with. So people got to thinking about if we’re preparing for a birth to happen, should we not also be preparing for the end of life? So the death doula was thought of. And it’s very similar. It’s preparation. It’s knowing that you’re going to die. Most often a death doula will be called when someone has been given that. So when someone has been told that death is imminent, they want to prepare so a death doula will join the family will talk to the person. Ask them those questions. “How do you want to die?” “What do you want to be happening?” “When you are dying?” “Do you want lots of people there?” “Do you want to die alone?” “Do you want one person holding your hand?” “What does the space look like?” “Do you want the smell of lavender?” “Do you want the smell of beer? “Do you want the curtains open?” “Do you want lots of people there talking?” “Or do you want people to sign in and only come one at a time?” So those are questions that we can ask people that probably they’ve never thought about. They usually answer “I don’t want to die.” “But I don’t want pain.” “And I want to know my family’s there.” So okay, so we can the medical system can help with the pain usually. But what do you mean by family? “Is that everybody who knows and loves you?” “Or is that three really important to people?” “Is that you know all the aunts and uncles that you’ve never really talked too much.” “You know, who is it?” “And what do they do?” “And what do you want happening as well?” “Where do you want the bed to face if you’re at home?” “Do you want it to face the door so you can see everybody coming?” “Or do you want it to face the window?” “Do you want to have your favorite beverage there so you can sip on it?” Do you want a backrub?” “Do you want, you know your grandkids to rub your feet?” “What is it you want?” “What music do you want to listen to?” I know for my spouse, I will try my very best to make sure a real live horse can put their head through the window. Because that’s what they want. Or a bale of hay at least. Right? “So is the dog going to be there with you?” “What are the things that are important that you want to be surrounded by?”

Brad: Presenting with somebody with questions like that probably helps them frame their life in a way that they wouldn’t naturally, they wouldn’t naturally think of these as even being options. But when you’ve got somebody coming alongside and saying these are options, and you get to pick and you get to select how this looks for you and for your loved ones, then everybody can be in on that. It’s a collaborative venture of this is how it’s all gonna happen. And this is this is our the role we get to play. Right? 

Hilde: So the death doula would try to ensure that all that happens, because the family gets into other places. Yes, they get thinking about their own feelings and what’s happening there. “Or how, Where are the kids? And as someone watching the children?” Well, I as a death, doula would make sure that all those things that we’ve talked about happen. So no, you can’t be on your cell phone right now talking to the babysitter, you go outside and do that. Because that’s not what we do here. Right. So those kinds of things. So that would be my job, is to make sure that all those details that we’ve talked about are still true. And that can happen. And when others forget, then “I’m the one that says no, this is what we’ve talked about. So we need to change what you’re doing now.” And to be that constant presence in the background most often to make sure that the conversations that that person wants happens. So I might not make the call to Aunt Margaret to say that so and so wants to talk to you. But I’d make sure that Margaret knows that the conversation is is invited. So please come. Yeah, and have that conversation. Right? Because it’s hard. When I when I’m dying, I’m thinking about dying. Yeah, but a couple of days or a week before that I might have some other ideas about Oh, “I’d love to talk to but I don’t have the capacity to do that.” So I make sure it happens. “I want fresh daisies in the room all the time.” The death doula would make sure that happens.

Brad: Yeah. I have had the privilege of walking or watching hospice care. And the level of attention and that kind of care is so it’s so unique. The people who are building that kind of space and environment are gifted in ways that most of us don’t see at least until that stage until we’re affected by it personally. And so there are places where I have connected with this. But it’s in kind of specialized environments. And so to open up this opportunity to people who haven’t contemplated before is really unique to me. I think this is such a neat offering to give people the space to to reflect on not just their life and their preferences, but how all their relational dynamics are working right at the end when they can still make those choices.

Hilde: A death doula will also talk to you about your health directives and make sure you’ve got will that’s been written. What are other things that need to be put in place as far as documents, death, doulas will also help with that. And I’ve learned as I’ve talked to death, doulas that they each seem to have a specialty. One person really didn’t want to be there when people were dying so much, but they wanted to make sure that everybody’s ready, and that all the things are set in place. So and so they can talk about what the end of care is, but “I don’t really want to be there. But I want to know that that’s happening.” So often, doulas will work in teams. So each one having their own specialty or being there if it’s over a longer period of time, like a month. So you would take a you know, like a 12 hour shift and then someone else would come. So you can share that as well. That seems to be the practice of some doulas also, also planning what you want to have happened after you’ve died. I mean, the most curious thing for me was the peace of the question. “When you have died, what do you want people to do?” And I’d never thought about that.

Some of the things where “I want everybody to stand up and sing. My favorite song while I’m still in the bed dead.” I thought: “Curious okay so they’re thinking, as someone who’s dying, what the rest of the people need and they think this would be helpful so they’ve asked for it. “Family was able to do that. So there’s a lot of talk about dying at home. And what that looks like it feels like. Our funeral home providers, they have a great job to do, but I’m learning that they don’t need to do anything. We can handle everything if people are willing to move a body from the death at home in a bed to the cemetery. So I’m still learning about what all that means but it is possible, apparently. But we also should look into what our funeral directors are doing, because they are remarkable people do know a lot, and they can’t answer.

Brad: Yes. Yeah, I was going to bring that up to my encounters with funeral directors hadn’t been many in they’re willing to just be open and answer questions and even when it wasn’t to related to questions of death. And also, one of my favorite experiences was my when my mother in law passed away–or died. The funeral directors were hanging back with us, the kids and the in-laws. And it was very dark humor that was being expressed. That’s how my wife’s family processes death. The funeral directors were right in there with those same kind of jokes and that I just remember like my eyebrows were totally raised. They were being extremely sensitive and very delicate with this, not stepping out of bounds or doing anything disrespectful, but they are right here, that they need to. And it just, yeah it surprised me. What a resource for a culture that is so death averse–to have people who are remarkably comfortable with it, and can help people grieve, however they need to. 

Hilde: And grieving is really important and it’s hard work. I often get people questioning my language when I say “do the hard work, you know you’re here in front of me at this funeral this is hard work.” I mention it at least three or four times. And sometimes people will say, “Why do you keep telling us it’s hard work?” Tell me what is easy. It’s not and it’s work. And if we don’t do the work. We will not get to the places where we can get to, to have some kind of peace, we never get over it, don’t plan on getting over it, because it’s not going to happen. But the good grieving and the intentional work of grieving will get us to a place where we can live with whatever that pain is or that sorrow, or that hurt. 

Right. And I just wanted to add, it’s, it’s important for us to acknowledge that on, on each other’s behalf that we should not expecting each other to get over it. We have to hold space for grief and that hard work, whatever that looks like on each other’s behalf. 

One of the best books, is to Tear Soup that I give to a lot of people who come to me and say, “I wish everybody would just telling me I should be better now, should get back to work. I’m not ready.” I said, “it’s a person who is making their own time and tears, and I’ll get there.” It just gives a gentle “back off, friends, family, I need to do this.” We can tell when people are stuck. And that’s part of my job. I’ll tell you if you’re stuck. Right now you’re just doing a really good job grieving and keep the crying, keep the walking. And if you have to stamp your feet in my basement. When you’re unhealthy, I’ll tell you. But usually it’s just the different time we take. To have someone honor that time is so important. “Just keep doing this, you’re doing well.” 

Brad: And speaking of that honor and another component that I’ve received is instruction, which is, again, contrary to instinct, is to remind people of the person that has died. That person lived and that life was really important and often the way that we kind of approach this is, we’d rather not talk about it because that might make somebody feel uncomfortable. And to remind people that we do remember, We’re there for this, this journey. We appreciated it that person too is, is so remarkably life-giving and honoring

Hilde: People say, so what do I say to them? “Ask them a story. So even if it’s on the year. I usually try to send a person a card at the anniversary of the death at least for three years and all I say is “remembering you as you remember. Love Hilde.” I don’t need to say anything else. And then that acknowledges that I to remember that they’ve got a sadness that they’re remembering. And it helps. It doesn’t take a long letter to say anything. “I just am remembering them.” or “I didn’t want to mention it because you know, it’s the year of the death. “Well you think I’m not remembering?” “What’s wrong with you? Of course I am remembering.” So people aren’t gonna forget. So remember with them. And even the death of a dog. Send a card. Even if you think it’s a little foolish then “I know your pet dog died.” That’s ggrief. Especially if that’s the only family that they have. That’s a death and that’s a grief. They can be as serious a grief as someone over the death of a human being. That might sound foolish to us. We don’t have a connection with a dog. But grieving’s grieving. No one’s forgetting the date.  

Brad: No, that’s right. Well, I have really appreciated this I think you touched on some really important things. From here, if somebody was interested to understand, or for either engaging, a death doula us a death doula or maybe somebody else. The entire concept of it, or if they were interested in becoming a death doula, to potentially discovering more about that for their own deaths. Do you have a way of people getting in touch with you?

Hilde: Sure. They can send me an email, they can also go online, to Douglas College. And I remembered the name. [laughs] Where I went, and it was online because of this COVID. It was a great course. I learned a lot of things. I was also, fortunately, able to tell some stories, because I’ve been doing it for a long time. Yeah, it’s, It’s a great course. They can contact me at my email. hjseal@hotmail.com I’d be glad for the conversation.

Brad: Yeah. Well thanks again for for sharing this moment, and for sharing your perspective, and the wisdom that you’ve gleaned from your curiosity on this. I hope this is a benefit to our listeners who are definitely aware in a whole new way of mortality, with COVID and some of the other things that have happened in our lives. To have this kind of confidence and gentle approach with ourselves and each other as we face this. 

Wrap-Up 

Sophia: Okay, that was a lot. Both informative and thought and heart provoking. It’s so great to be sitting here with friends listening in on the conversation and wondering how: “that’s a new take, that’s a new perspective. I’m gonna have to think about some of those.” I wonder, Kay, what kind of hit home for you or brought up a question for you?

K: Yeah. Thank you, Sophia. I found the, resonance between Hilde as a barefoot human, and a grounded human. That really stuck with me throughout this, whole conversation. That Hilde is somebody who is concerned and entrenched in questions of ground. Questions of returning to ground. There’s something about that, that moves between death and life, that her orientation towards death leads to a renewed sense of life, a new way of engaging with life, and I just felt that that really trickled down into every aspect of what she was presenting. It was very impactful for me.

Brad: They’re just inseparable. They’re part of the same thing. Hilde did such a good job of weaving those things together. Life is complicated, and full. Death is even that, in the midst of it, yeah.

Sophia: I was struck by the weaving in of new language and the understanding that at each stage of our lives, we comprehend and relate to death in such different ways. And that, as we update our own understanding of what is death, it helps us to guide then those who are younger, or to relate to those who are older as we’re on this journey in life. 

K: That community aspect I think was was the most impactful for me. Just that the role of friends and family, community, what whatever that might be–that is key. I think particularly what you said Brad, about how we like to think of ourselves as, you know, thinking and perceiving death, in a very personal way that it’s “me, I will die so why get anyone else involved?” Right? But no, it is it’s a communal thing because we all will die and we all are actually impinged on by the people around us, so there’s no need to forget them. In fact, It’s more to invite them in.

Brad: Yeah, that part of the conversation was probably the most meaningful to me, that drawing people, in helping other people. So, both as you’re as you’re making the important decisions that end up with a eulogy that you want your life to write, and just that whole community element in life and in the end of life too. It’s all part of the same thing. We have an impact on each other, whether we want it or not. So let’s explore them, enjoy them together, and it seems kind of weird to say “enjoy death,” but the way that Hilde’s approach was can be even lovely, it surprised me. And as I was reflecting on this as she was talking, I was like, “yea, the way that you are approaching death is alive, which is just great.

Sophia: There was, and there was a wakefulness, about that, that different than dying peacefully. But there’s a sense of: “it can be lovely. In an awake-full way in a conscious way as we choose to do it with our families differently and engage the conversation.” But in particular, going back to what you talked about, that writing of the eulogy, but having it affect how you live your life, not just what happens after you die. I really liked that and, and I loved how in the practice of writing that, Hilde invites us into maybe finding a team, a life team that helps keep us accountable to that practice of the words and the qualities that we’ve written about ourselves, are we living that? And having people once a year, I think she said “go to the bar and hang out or just you know get together with friends and ask, Is this how you’re living your life?” 

Brad: That’s right. Yeah. And that intentional drawing together and, and, as you say “wakefulness.” There’s the joint collaboration in making that experience of my life the way that we’ve agreed that it should be. Right. It was, that was beautiful.  

Sophia: And there’s support in that. So as a death doula, Hilde really becomes also a life doula like helping people live life more fully.

K: Absolutely. And I think that just what you folks and what Hilde is getting at is part of the long story of religion. I wondered for years why it was that skulls were such a large part of the Christian tradition, particularly Catholic tradition–that “momento mori,” right? That “remember death.” It’s figured everywhere in our congregations and certainly beyond Christianity. There’s something here that’s ever-present when when we dwell in religious spaces. And I think that part of it at least is that, that of community, it’s the sense that death is done best in community, and religious spaces as spaces that invite community are ones that best equip us to recognize that death will happen, recognize that deaths are happening, and then walk with others as we move towards our own death.

Brad: Who knew to a topic that should be so morbid but it’s so full of life and energy? 

Sophia: Right? Who knew? And I hope that this is just the beginning. The beginning of engaging death in a whole new way for all of us, you know over the years. You know I’ve been exposed to various practices that people have done to start to engage these questions, I have some friends who are Buddhists to have a practice of dying every day. And so there’s a very set meditation process that they do and they do it in order that they might live more fully. It’s not just about that wakefulness at the moment of death but it’s that wakefulness in all of life are Wayne Muller’s book, you know, How then shall we live? with the tagline: “knowing we will die.” And so I think we have the opportunity here to engage in practices, write our eulogy. Determine what are those qualities that we want to live by. In every moment, and then go and do it, and to live fully into those qualities. And so even if you’re walking or driving while you’re listening to this podcast, think. What are those two or three qualities that you would like to have someone say about you, as they’re celebrating your life, and then choose those qualities every day as, “how do I live more, this or that?” And so I think: Let’s hope this is just the beginning that we continue the conversation here and that we make available through our show notes and other ways of practices and ways of engaging with death, dying, life.

And so our invitation to all of you listening here is to engage with the podcast, engage with us through Twitter, through Instagram, through Facebook. All the ways that we can be in conversation. Let’s be a part of the shift that is happening in each one of us, and also support the shift that is happening in our world.

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